This has always been Bradley's team and it seemed like Vanney was just along for the ride. Yeah we won everything when the most expensive roster in the league was firing on all cylinders but then what happened? Players get injured, Bradley drops into the back line to fill a hole we all saw was coming and then we slipped down the standings.
That's a pretty interesting conspiracy theory! Bradley does have more influence than many captains, but he was on the field when those losses occurred and just as vocal. Plus Vanney benched Bradley near the end of the final losing match, something Bradley clearly didn't like, so we can see who is ultimately in charge.Originally Posted by MartinUtd
The players have talked about how meticulous Vanney trains the team and details strategy for each specific team. That played a big role in the treble. The players referred to it multiple times. So one cannot say that the coach had no effect. CONCACAF agrees, and gave Vanney the award.
I wouldnt expect the players to say otherwise.
If your theory is correct, then it doesn't matter who is coach. If Bradley decided the strategy and formations, planned the training, and Vanney just did as asked, then Bradley is a genius in winning the treble, and we wouldn't want to upset his leadership.
I'll go with the journalists. They credit the whole coaching team, including Vanney.
This is all ridiculous.
Someday Vanney should leave because all things run their course, and eventually everyone loses the room.
But this “discussion “ of the merits of a coach who took his team to the finals of CCL and MLS three times in the last 18 months, losing none of those games, borders on offensive.
Is there a feature where you can ignore a thread? Seeing these just bugs me. Anyone reading this will conclude fans here don’t deserve to win.
Last edited by ensco; 07-24-2018 at 02:43 PM.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
*slow clap* take a bow, sir......
Vanney isn’t some fraud gifted with the highest wage team in MLS. However, all the pregame prep can only take a team so far until talent disparity becomes apparent. The difference between an average and a good coach is less than that of a bad coach and an average coach. I struggle to name a single coach that could turn this team around outside of regression to the mean.
I'd have him as player/coach. I don't think Vanney is completely uninvolved but he's definitely overblown. It's hard to criticise around here in front of the faithful, just look how hawkish ensco is getting lol
^I am not hawkish.
I did not support a single TFC coach until Vanney, and then only really after two years. I got tired of newbies being given the job.
My support for Vanney has gone from nonexistent to grudging to full-on, because of his record of accomplishment.
Three months of poor results, especially when there is an obvious explanation for that, does not undo that record.
Have some gratitude. Two MLS finals is something your average MLS team will take 25 years to achieve. Winning the Cup is something an average team will only do every 25 years. Making the CCL final has only been done by three MLS teams ever.
Vanney did all those things in 3 and a half years. He's far from the only reason, but he did it. Somehow, the fact that he's not the only reason seems to liberate people to question his fitness. But that's crazy - nobody in team sports ever does anything alone. It's always a system. He was at the very center of that system. It succeeded in part because of him. It's self evident.
You think anyone in that chair could have gotten the Montreal comeback done? Or gotten results game after game in summer 2017 with half the roster gone, so that we had home field in crunch time in the playoffs? Or developed Hagglund, Delgado, Zavaleta, Morgan and others into valuable MLS domestics and championship pieces? Or gotten Seba to change his game and become primarily a creator for Jozy?
If it turns out that we didn’t get close to winning a championship this year, because Vanney didn’t get results when his roster was even more wrecked that last summer, his overall 4 year record will still be stellar.
Sorry, but harsh words are required. Actually having a serious conversation about Vanney is nuts. He has done the job, and more.
Your team are not going to win all the time, or most of the time. Nobody has all the answers.
Last edited by ensco; 07-25-2018 at 07:37 AM.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
Well said, ensco.
A lot of us followed a similar path in eventually thinking that Vanney must have something to do with the team's success.
A good reality check is that Kreis was available to be TFC's coach, and it was a serious possibility that he could have been signed. Many, including myself would have supported that move. Would he have better success than Vanney? Two MLS Cups and win the CCL? It's hard to imagine that.
I actually think that the real reason that Vanney will never be accepted by some no matter what his record is has to do with his passport.
If he had a UK or Spanish or German passport, if he had been the assistant coach of Barcelona instead of Chivas USA, then the same people who discount him would have been his number one supporters.
Even if his record wasn't as good or his strategy as well suited to MLS just the fact of having been an assistant at a "big name" foreign club would have given a "golden glow" to his resume.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-25-2018 at 07:58 AM.
Yeah let's not have a conversation at all because it vexes some people. Close the thread already.
bingo....for further info please see Carver, John......
I agree - these feel like troll threads sometimes.
I'VE UPDATED MY POST TO BE LESS CRITICAL
But you're view on the defensive line is limited.
If you didn't realize how important drew moor was to the defensive line - then you were not really paying attention to play on the pitch. When Chris Mavinga came in, it only strengthen Drew's ability to marshall the backline, or as you called it "barking out defensive play calls like a middle linebacker"
Every successful team in the world has a CB marshal. You cannot run a successful backline without one. Name a championship team that did not have someone out the back who acted as the marshall. A guy who is constantly looking at the entire field and barking orders at guys. There are only one other player that has a better view of the field than a CB and that is the goalie. The goalie barks at the defensive line. The CB reiterates those calls and takes it a step further to bark at the midfield (bradley et all) Bradley barks at the mids and if need be, the forwards (but that's not really too often)
We lost both of our backline leaders for the majority of the season.
A big part of why we won our last game because Chris Mavinga was back. he was calling out players all game for not stepping up defensively. He is only one side of the defensive equation - once we get Drew back or get a replacement for him - you will see the TFC of last year again.
Zavaleta and Hagglund are not Drew Moor replacements. They both occupy the 3rd slot in the defensive hierarchy. The fact that people expected them to step up and replace Mavinga and Moor was laughable and the fact that people cannot see that a decimated backline is important to winning is even more laughable.
Last edited by jabbronies; 07-25-2018 at 10:58 AM.
Post what you want, it's a free country.
Lots of things are opinions where no one is "right" or "wrong" but once in a while, one guy says it's sunny, one guy says it's raining, and all you need to do is look out the effing window to see the truth.
I feel this discussion is one of those. Vanney is not perfect, and TFC have had tactical problems this year. But nobody reasonable would look at the overall story and conclude that Vanney "was just along for the ride".
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
You think this issue is black and white? What a joke.
The context for this discussion was this line of yours
followed up when you were questioned about it via the player's saying otherwise withThis has always been Bradley's team and it seemed like Vanney was just along for the ride.
I wouldnt expect the players to say otherwise.
That's a pretty darn black & white view of things.
Not sure that is true in MLS, to be honest. Which is maybe one reason why most teams are defensively suspect.
Every journo I've heard on this indicates Moor talks WAAAY more then most CB leaders do. This team got used to his specific way of doing things. Not many teams went from being defensive basket cases by specifically spending a whole month of preseason focusing on defensive cohesion at the same time as their first ever CB marshal came in.
That and see my post about how Vanney has had to deal with North American trained CB's who don't know the basics of CB work that a 10 year old should know.
Championship teams roll with CB bosses:
Galaxy had Omar Gonzalez
Timbers had Liam Ridgwell
SKC had Bessler and Collin
Fuck the Sounders - they got lucky
TFC had Moor and Mavinga
But the idea that proper CB leaders are in not the norm in MLS false. It's just that that no one talks about them
Not surprised about Vanney saying guys are coming into the club with a lack of knowledge of the basics of the game. It's very obvious on the pitch
I wondered in 2014 or 2015 if the problem was that “The General” is taking too much of the role a CB more naturally takes.
Reading the above debate makes me wonder if Bradley’s outsized role makes us less resilient (ie subs just wind up less sure of where to be and what to do) than they otherwise would be.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
Touche, but at least I'm not trying to shut down conversation I don't like. This is a discussion forum afrerall.
Last edited by MartinUtd; 07-25-2018 at 04:53 PM. Reason: Typo
Sounders have Chad Marshall
“Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.
I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’
And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”
-Eduardo Galeano
Nobody is trying to shut you down. I asked about an “avoid thread” feature, because I think the topic is interesting (Vanney has not gotten things right this year) but I personally want no part of “Vanney must go” posts or threads, I have pther ways of spending time. My problem I guess, not yours.
Carry on.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
When Drew Moor came into the team - it was almost instantly, but I saw Bradley take a step back from barking orders at players.
Drew keeps Bradley in check - he's got the maturity and experience to be able to do that and Bradley respects him enough to yield.
However the opposite is also true - When Drew fucks up or someone on the D fucks up - Bradley lets him know about it.
if you are ever at the stadium try and focus on that connection between Drew and Bradley - and not just for a couple minutes, do it every time the ball is turned over and watch it through even after the whistle. if you have access to binoculars - even better because you can see the reactions on their faces.
To add to this - Bradley ended up becoming a better player - probably because he was able to focus on his job in the pitch as oppose to trying to wrangle everyone else around him
I think the biggest growth this team accomplished was from 2015 - 2016. Yes a big part of that was the arrival of Moor and others but Vanney figured out how to best use the talent available. He restricted Bradley's role, utilized two of the league's best wing-backs and put Moor in a situation where he could control the back line. Once the team started humming he was able to get more out of Delgado and our young CBs. Plenty of other coaches likely would have messed up those ingredients.
Yes.
I thought Vanney's man-management in the game last night was very good. He pulled out Jozy at the half and Mavinga on the hour to preserve their stamina for Saturday. I don't see why they can't beat Chicago again this weekend. I think we'll have a better idea of how good he is during this run for the playoffs. If he can manage them into the top 6, then I think he'll have cemented himself as the best Coach TFC has ever had.
You think Vanney hasnt already "cemented himself as the best Coach TFC has ever had"?
FWIW, Hernandez was communicating and acting the general in the back last night more then I've ever seen him. And Hagglund was doing the forward runs that VDW has started to do to create some space for the DLPM that Bradley & Fraser are.
This is the result of coaching & anybody who thinks Vanney & Co do none is not watching the games.
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