Who has produced a worse points earned per dollar spent, or new revenue per dollar spent? I'm open to arguments, but I have him so far in front he can't even see second place.Originally Posted by OgtheDim
There's been worse ones in terms of intentions, look at Precourt. But in terms of competency - measured - who has had a worse ROI? Again, in a raw measured from rather than a "gee that guy sucked for x boneheaded move". I genuinely can't think of a single other person.
Mo Johnston didn’t blow as big of a budget but he was inept and useless as they come. I suppose there are a few more of those types out there. You could argue they are worse than Manning because if trusted with a budget they’d have certainly failed as bad or worse.
But if you narrow it down to “who was trusted to a huge war chest of cash / has deep club resources but achieves nothing close to what they should?”
Chris Klein might be in the discussion but I feel like Manning is right there too. Depends how much you want to give Manning credit for Leiweke’s work and/or Lagerway’s work.
Yeah I'm thinking about Manning from 2019 (Bez leaves and isn't replaced) onwards, so maybe more him as a GM than him as a president - but that, granted, is convenient for my argument. Basically, I don't thinkj there's been anyone who has done a worse job as the primary guy calling the shots on roster construction and general management.
I think, dollar spent to return, he's ahead of Klein but Mo is a good shout. Technically, Mo has a better $ spent : points earned ratio, saved by general league spending inflation since he was around, but it's hard to imagine he wouldn't have flushed any warchest down the toilet.
$ spent isn't the measure here - building a competent team requires more then that (see our depth problems right now which are all on Bradley (enabled but left alone by Manning))
Look at the Fire and Nelson Rodriquez.
Also, look at what LAG experienced lately with an outright SG revolt against Klein.
There are worse then Manning out there...
It's not money spend, it's ROI. And to me, that's the *only* measure. Anything else is subjective. If there's worse than Manning on ROI, who is it? Who has gotten less return on each dollar? Who has achieved lower points earned per dollar spent?
Again, I don't want subjective. I don't want "fans really didn't like when he...". Show me who is measurably worse. There's probably ones out there but I can't think of them. It's hard to imagine getting less per dollar than what he's managed here since 2019. I suspect he's practically lapping the field.
Last edited by JoesphNdo; 07-08-2024 at 06:31 AM.
Money spent on player salaries is the number one predictor of success in sports and MLS is no exception. There’s a study out there with the correlation for MLS, it tracks.
I find it hard to imagine that Manning & Hernandez will survive this upcoming off season.
We're beginning to enter our own personal groundhog day of ineptitude that started 2 summers ago and is becoming a summer to fall trend. Hard to envision us being as poor as the latter half of last season but we're definitely heading in that direction. Unless these moves that are ready to go when the window opens are transformative then I can't see us righting the ship with what we have and that means the axe will finally have to fall.
Hernandez will probably survive at least unless a new team president brings in his own GM,
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I would be shocked if he did survive a new president. I borderline wonder if Herdman would stick.
New leaders want their own people.
Nope
https://www.capology.com/us/mls/payrolls/
What more do people at MLSE need to see after 3-4 years of this crap??
This is a link showing a point in time, not a statistical study.
Its this season....which if we are judging this season's spend...is the criteria.
As I have said, I think Manning should have gone at the end of last season. But the use of our total spend as a way to indicate ineptitude doesn't match reality.
Where we have been REALLY bad is in the 300-800k area - long term contracts for people that are just not that good.
Arguing $ doesn't buy championships in the long term is ridiculous. A single point in time doesn't change that. The long term is emphatic, every league, every sport. If not, why would teams spend? What's the pitch for us spending on our DPs if not success?
There's always going to be exceptions, but in any league over a large sample the championships will follow the money far far more often than not
Last edited by JoesphNdo; 07-10-2024 at 07:41 PM.
2023
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...n-mls-by-team/
2022
https://www.pesstatsdatabase.com/mls-team-salaries/
2021
https://www.capology.com/us/mls/payrolls/2021/
*********
Its not just now people
MLS salary totals do not buy championships
Its the spend within the cap that is the difference
Last edited by OgtheDim; 07-10-2024 at 08:02 PM.
The roster, management and coaching construction on this team within the last 5 year led to us today losing to a CPL team.
This would be a possible moment when somebody in leadership goes "Decisions were made that got us to a here we should not be at and now its time for somebody else to start to be making the decisions at that level"
(same thing should be going on in Atlanta btw who lost in the US Open Cup this week)
That MLSE isn't capable of making those decisions mid season is pretty indicative of a failure at the top end of MLSE to manage these teams as profit driving sports properties - their managing internal politics.
The sooner we are out from MLSE, the better.
What was the pitch for spending on our DPs, then?
This is the most brilliant thing you have ever posted, and you have posted a lot. An organization where no one is held accountable for results can not succeed.
In hindsight the establishment of MLSE was one of the worst things to ever happen in Toronto sports history for fans.
Last edited by NK Toronto; 07-10-2024 at 08:48 PM.
LAG 2007-2014 (although they didn't always win by any means but they were almost always up there)
&
TFC 2017
can be repeated
If you look at the data (with the capology site, just change the year and the data can be seen), LAG succeeded with Keane etc but none of the other high spends did.
Seattle when they went 3 out of 4 championships were top 5 but never top 3.
Toronto has spent like stink in top 5 for a LONG time and only 2016, 2017 & 2019 happened. Atlanta only spent salary wise high in 2019 - 2018 when they won they were 8th.
Its not the salary spend - its how the rosters are constructed.
And THAT's where Manning has failed the most, ultimately.
Last edited by OgtheDim; 07-10-2024 at 08:54 PM.
Feels a bit like climate vs. weather argument.
But let me backup and clarify my comment and the meaning of all these studies. It indicates the single most important factor is spending the money on salaries. But it alone may not be able to override challenges in a number of other areas. Poor management, disengaged ownership, etc…
So all it is to say, I tend to be of the opinion, if you spend a lot, you need only be average in other areas to have a competitive team. Even if you’re excellent at everything else, it’s tough to beat the team with the signifcianty higher payroll who moderately has their shit together. It’s just the fact we don’t that’s so roundly frustrating.
Bill Manning is done. Neil Davidson just posted on X.
Thank you, CPL.
Finally. Now we can actually start re-building as a club.
No grudge towards the man personally but this was long overdue.
Last edited by ag futbol; 07-11-2024 at 10:15 AM.
The "mutual" thing is not true. He was not expecting to leave today.
Yup, we all just got an email
I stand corrected.
Great news!
Someone on here might know more but felt like this was coming regardless.
He gone!
I can say I chatted with him every so often, and there was clearly the sense that they have to turn it around this year. But this coming after Forge was a surprise to him.
I think they did this as much to fire a shot over everyone else's bow as to right the ship. They might have been content with a Canadian title, OR the playoffs. But the risk of neither has made them react. That, and the new guy Keith Pelley (a former TSN intern from back when I started in journalism decades ago, I'll note) isn't the type to fuck around and find out. He'll have someone in mind already, based on the moves he's already made.
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