You make some good points and appreciate your enthusiasm...too bad about your condescending attitude. But please forgive me if last night, going out for gelato was potentially more fulfilling than having to endure something like the first half again. And let me say this, please do not drag me into what being a supporter really means.Originally Posted by lerxst
And by the way, I think you forgot an "f" in your last sentence about the club I have supported since the 1970s.
I can't fookin wait for this year's Town Hall meetings.
Its funny how i listen to some individuals say Winter was long-term and Mariner is not. We have the 3rd highest payroll equal to the worst team in the league. This should get everybody in managment and thier pet dog fired for all i care. TFC was short term under Winter as well, its just we percieve the formation he used would be long term but really would any of these player be around 2 years from now except for our Acedemy kids?
If f i dont see significant change after Bell/Rogers come in i think im pretty much done with this team, say what you will but after 6 years of shit it gets really hard to justify sticking around. If your wondering i rarley even watch Leafs games anymore.
Last edited by Richard; 06-17-2012 at 01:24 PM.
I'll take a more cynical view in that the idea to "develop from within" is a league directive. It's not unique to TFC. Every team has an MLS Academy because every team shares in the $200M Adidas deal which was struck based on the access to young players that Adidas would receive.
I love the FC Dallas model. 5,000 kids in their Academy program. Really? You mean they have over 250 teams each with paid coaches and 3:1 ratio of training to games? No, they are counting kids in summer camps and one day clinics like a website counts hits. Expanding "partnerships" with local soccer associations enables more "hits" to be counted... as the Whitecaps have done with the BC Soccer Association.
It's ridiculous to think that parents will send their kids to TFC-Academy if they are living in Ottawa or Napean or Thunder Bay or London or Kitchener or Orillia or anywhere outside of the GTA. It is a business model of course and selling a kid will yield dividends. To think of it as the only way to stock the first team with talent is foolhardy and will yield results no better than we have seen.
Until we have a leader that acknowledges that to compete in a North American league with a Domestic quota rule they need to identify and attract the best talent from North America (not just the GTA) we will continue to see these results.
I agree with this. In fact, though I am fond of saying "Win or Draw now, there is no lose" I don't want to see Mariner fired for poor results. I want Anselmi fired and then we can defer a decision on Mariner until a new direction, one which embraces the North American nature of our league, is determined.I will say, however, that if they keep the hands off from here on in and leave Mariner alone, he's got the knowledge and background to put something winning together. I simply don't expect it to happen. They'll probably axe his ass if we're not winning most games by this time next year.
Last edited by Pookie; 06-17-2012 at 01:34 PM.
There is some truth in Toronto FC essentially "carrying the Canadian flag" because they were the first Canadian MLS club and had a bunch of Canadians on the original squad, including Andrea Lombardo, who was legitimately the worst striker in the history of ever. But now there are 3 MLS clubs in Canada, and the other two look vastly superior to us in MLS already. To use Canadian clubs as a springboard for Canadian national team talent is just not smart and I wouldn't be exaggerating if I said Canada is one of the worst footballing nations in the developed Western world.
I just want a winning team, and for obvious reasons I don't give a shit if it involves 10 Canadians or 1 on the pitch, and it seems Vancouver and Montreal have taken this approach.
I really don't see any competing agendas here.
We have 30 roster spots, ten of which are occupied by borderline professionals on pretty much all MLS teams. Is it that much of a problem if we stock it with academy talent and look long term? We are one of a handful of MLS clubs with a robust local soccer community which can be adequately tapped by a MLS team, it's already yielded a few academy players who have more upside than the usual 22-23 year old NCAA plumber. Providing we don't get ahead of ourselves and start these kids before they are ready... there isn't any reason why having these players on our roster hurts our first team.
If you want to know why TFC sucks: we misspend our resources. Our scouting is awful and our contract negotiation is atrocious. I don't care whether the back end of the roster is Canadian or American, until we can consistently can identify international players who make a difference this team will be junk.
Well, as of right now that Academy talent is essentially in our starting 11. Whereas Canadians on Vancouver's roster see 0 minutes of game time, ours play. As an example, Henry has more minutes that Frings. Granted, injuries to Frings have impacted that but the point is that they are taking on significant minutes. The point is that a very young Henry is being thrust into a role that he may or may not be ready for.
I take a slight issue with the robust local soccer community comment. We are talking about the GTA almost exclusively. 13 year olds aren't having their parents drive them in from London, Ontario 3 x a week. We are talking about plucking talent from an OSA development system that has fed the national team to the point that we have achieved the ranking of 75th in the world.We are one of a handful of MLS clubs with a robust local soccer community which can be adequately tapped by a MLS team, it's already yielded a few academy players who have more upside than the usual 22-23 year old NCAA plumber. Providing we don't get ahead of ourselves and start these kids before they are ready... there isn't any reason why having these players on our roster hurts our first team.
Why not pluck them from the USA where they have collectively reached the height of 14th in the world at one point?
Sadly, we are also talking about a hockey mad hotbed of development where the best "athletes"... perhaps directed by their parents... are playing hockey to the point where 208 current NHLers come from this Province. The hockey leagues in and around the GTA are serious business.
I think the Academy is a great development initiative. I think that you might identify players from here who could have a shot. The brochures sound terrific but I wouldn't bank on this as the system that will feed the first team exclusively for years and years. Not scouting for talent is a huge mistake.
I agree and I'm not sure if you see the correlation. Let's walk with that scouting example.If you want to know why TFC sucks: we misspend our resources. Our scouting is awful and our contract negotiation is atrocious. I don't care whether the back end of the roster is Canadian or American, until we can consistently can identify international players who make a difference this team will be junk.
If there is an available roster spot and there is a choice between promoting an Academy player and an American player how do we know we are making an informed decision if scouting is awful? Maybe the fact that we see Stinson (or Dunfield for that matter) is because no one has been anywhere in North America to see what's available.
I go with you if we were talking spots 20-24 on the roster. But we aren't. We are talking about starters or active subs.
I am not at all confident that we have identified the strongest roster available.
On a side note. I love BMO and all, but i think BMO is kind of ugly and a step down now in terms architectural design compared to all these new stadiums popping up in this league.
K.C. Stadium is a prime example.
Right, so I'd agree with you in a sense that academy players have too large of a role in the first team currently.
BUT if you look at why they have their roles in the first place... it's not by design, it's because TFC didn't get the talent they need out of signings that were designed to be first team. Just because they are playing too much doesn't mean they shouldn't be on the roster.
I'll call it robust because there is a huge volume of registered players here within the GTA. It is incredibly diverse and dense. So that area alone gives you a lot to work with... but that being said, TFC still has players on its roster from outside the city so I think you've taken your argument about where we can draw players from further than warranted.I take a slight issue with the robust local soccer community comment. We are talking about the GTA almost exclusively. 13 year olds aren't having their parents drive them in from London, Ontario 3 x a week. We are talking about plucking talent from an OSA development system that has fed the national team to the point that we have achieved the ranking of 75th in the world.
Why not pluck them from the USA where they have collectively reached the height of 14th in the world at one point?
The 75th ranking in FIFA tells you where we are, not where we could be. Development is about potential, and conditions that allow potential to flourish. The conditions in the area are advantageous to TFC ... if they knew how to capitalize on them. It's also worth noting that we're developing players for a relatively meddling league here. I think it more than meets the requirement.
Right, but this is a problem on multiple levels, it's not about the Canadian academy kids who are on the roster.If there is an available roster spot and there is a choice between promoting an Academy player and an American player how do we know we are making an informed decision if scouting is awful? Maybe the fact that we see Stinson (or Dunfield for that matter) is because no one has been anywhere in North America to see what's available.
I go with you if we were talking spots 20-24 on the roster. But we aren't. We are talking about starters or active subs.
I am not at all confident that we have identified the strongest roster available.
Despite some marketing spin by the F.O. this team was NEVER designed around academy graduates. TFC signed players who were intended to be starters, they were subsequently soooo poor that starting academy players who earn minimal wages makes more sense. You will find no argument from me that guys like Dunfield, JDG, Cann, etc... could be replaced by more talented individuals. That being said, comparing someone like Stinson to talent elsewhere in North America is apples and Oranges.
For those spots at the end of the roster you have very minimal money to throw out there. You're going to get a very low quality NCAA grad, USL lifer, or a academy graduate for that money. The upside of the academy graduates just wins out in my opinion. You take these guys from a young age and bring them through and you'll have a better player than you would if you take a short-term mentality and use one of the other alternatives.
If TFC wants to fix itself, it needs to fix it's wonky salary allocation and start finding some better players. TFC has 20 spots it can use to stock first team players as it stands, that should be more than sufficient to field a good squad. If you're really saying these academy kids are a hindrance, that to me sounds a lot like you feel that there are better players out there for 40k a year and those players on other teams make the difference between TFC and a winning squad. I just do not see that on any level. Back end roster players are back end roster players. TFC is actually ahead of the curve here by potentially getting huge value out of something other teams are basically wasting on scrubs that offer a very small, short term benefit.
With all due respect to everyone that felt this team was more competitive under Winter, I think you all need to seriously refresh your memory. The match against RSL was the exception under Winter, not the norm.
Winter won a grand total of ONE game on the road in MLS during his tenure, and TFC's goal differential on the road was was beyond pathetic.
I must have watched a different match last night than many of you, because after the first 20-30 minutes in which TFC was understandably sluggish, the boys came on strong and generated at least 6-7 quality chances to even the game, 3-4 of which were point blank range.
But I suppose it was all part of SKC's plan to let TFC back into the game and be a goal post and a few incredible saves by their goalkeeper away from earning points on their own turf.
Those of who you suggest that Winter was fired prematurely now actually have the nerve to berate Mariner after one game?
Suit yourselves.
And people like you who have faith in Mariner despite the fact that he was a part of the problem that led to a 1-9 start AND
has just as little experience coaching as Winter AND
likes to play an archaic, dead form of football AND
did not have the team prepared at all (despite having a long break to get his shit together...the same break that you use as an excuse)
Suit yourself.
As for me...I don't like that Winter was fired but I understand it. What bothers me waaaaaay more is that they replaced him with a man that not only doesn't know shit about the system or style of play that the club has adopted but he doesn't even like it.
How stupid is that?
This is pretty much exactly what Pookie has been saying. This has been the same management problem from day one with this team that has never been addressed. From the start they scrambled for players and signed anyone they could convince to play here - the scouting was essentially done by an agency (who just heppened to represent most of the players signed here). Did the team spend any money on scouts? Who handled the contract negotiations that resulted ithis wonky salary allocation? Who's handling it now?
This is what people mean by the head coach here not getting any support, there's never been a proper front office. There still isn't.
It blows my mind that people are upset that Winter was fired. He was awful. What do you mean by the head coach not getting any support? It seems to be a cliche that people throw around without it meaning anything. Give examples. I didn't hear or read Winter complaining he didn't have support. What do you really know about the front office? Nothing.
Winter's record is why he was fired. He brought in many players and couldn't get them to perform under his system. He absolutely 100% deserved to be fired.
He also led TFC to the CCL Semi's. So I can see how people look at that side of things, even though I agree he should have been axed.
Really the real problem is above winter anyway. And that's where we should focus our attention/angst.
I hear that all the time and I don't buy it. Rogers/Bell are used to running divisions and asking them all to succeed. Do you think Rogers putting money into CITY TV meant they lost the ball in the cable TV division? No way.
This will be a VERY different corporate mindset from the construction company industry one MLSE has had for the last 15 years. In construction, you can have a side project that doesn't maximise and you put some guy in just to keep him busy. And the Teacher's didn't care because all they wanted was their fat cheque at the end of the quarter.
Bell and Rogers don't do that. They want revenue from content, and losing NEVER does that.
Anselmi's only hope to stay is if the Christmas Tree builder somehow persuades Rogers and Bell to let him run things for a couple of years. That would last 2 years, until some people on Rogers' or Bell's board or in their exec suites start asking questions.
This team will be run VERY differently 5 seasons from now.
I hope your right.
The CCL run was good, but people are hanging too much on that. The fact that a team can be so much better in one competition than another speaks to a lack of consistency. If we were good in the CCL then we should have been good in our league too. I doubt we were more than a game or 2 above .500 in the CCL anyway. His overall record was horrible.
Now where the fuck is this Shakes fuck with his comments?
Helloooooooo!!!!!!
Calling Shakes. Come in Shakes!
Oh.
He is probably on his hands/knees, among several paint cans/brushes/rollers with a Barrie contingent making a spectacular banner for the next match @ BMO.
Keep up the good work Shakes.
KD.
I don't disagree about having to win I just feel that the leafs and raptors will be the major priority for the management group. There are about 80 games each for the leafs Vs 30 some odd for tfc.
The priority will be those 2 franchises and tfc will continue to be an added bonus that doesn't lose money.
God Only Knows Just How much I Love You.
KD.
Moderator
I'm here, waiting patiently for others to discuss this.
If you've got some specific problem with me, then take it to private messages. Getting tired of this incoherent raging spittle from you and Craiger about things I never said, and actions I never took. While you're writing that PM, feel free to let me know who I personally "called out "or "audited" (?) with my "mighty mod powers".
Others may find the bi-polar forum behaviour endearing. I am not one of them. The forum rules are the forum rules, and you're expected to abide by them.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
way to go mlse, 6 years and you still can't find a competent coach... how does anselmi still have a job - 6 years and still can't fill the coaching position... epic fail...
and let's not forget Mariner was our SCOUT and player development Manager(WTF that means)who signed 70-80% of our roster,players like Aceval,Avila,Burgos Jr,Dunfiled,Eckersley,Emory,Johnson,Lambe,Maund,Pl ata,Silva,D.Williams,Hall.
We all know players they came here thanks to Winter,Soolsma,Frings,Koevermans,and academy kids that got chance to play for 1st team,Stinson,Morgan,Henry,Cordon....
The way I see, this is Mariner's team and there is no way he should get more than month(he already got 10 days to prepare team for last night embarrassing game)to produce results,he said he will tweak a bit,not total overhaul,just because HE decide to lie at the press conference and went for full overhaul does not mean he should get any extra time.
No results by July,15 when transfer opens,get the fuck out with him and Anslemi and bring another coach,who cares now if we have another coach this year.We still have T.Rongen and DeKlark on our payroll it wont hurt to try with them.
FFS mariner was jumping an yelling on the sideline last night like REP U11 coach who is trying to teach the kids how to play 11 a side for the first time ever,if he did his job properly during 10 days of practicing he should be sitting on the bench and watching his teams executing what he thought them,not giving instruction like he has kids on the field that run around like headless chickens,only what was missing to look exactly as youth U11 game is every now and than loud BOOOOT It,from the side line and that would be a perfect copy of REP games in Ontario.
He has more experience with NA media than Winter and he is using it 100%,having a interview during the game and telling us how he will change formation push up and even what players he will substitute,are you fooking kidding me?
As head coach last night it was his 15th game as head coach,4 times less than Winter,why people think he is the answer for our problems,when it's obvious he was/is a part of the problem,his sugar daddy Tom should be fired with Mariner,Kockhrane and Bernie.
CLEAN the FO,hire new club president with soccer knowledge and let him do the job,period.
This...
6 years and they can't hire a coach with some proven experience/crudentials... This season is a write-off, this would be the best time to bring in a real coach to prepare for next season and we haven't heard anything from management on who they plan to bring in. I don't mean to slam Mariner, maybe he can turn out well, but it's a gamble. It seems like anselmi has thinks mariner is now the coach and will wait for fans to get pissed off again and we go through the hole fire a coach and promote the assistant again and again... I would like to hear from upper management about what kind of efforts they're making to fill the position. I have a feeling that nothing will happen...
Please for the love of god, hire a proven coach now so we can have a proper pre-season for once and be ready at the beginning of next season.
Real Sports isn't for you and I. It's for corporate asshole joe and his buddy, just like the Leafs are.
Anyone watching last night's match is fully aware that Santos is going to bloody obliterate us to the moon with that form. At least with Winter we had some kind of a chance.
Guys, Tom Anselmi has other functions at MLSE. He is the Executive VP and COO of the entire operation meaning that he has other functions other than running TFC.
So he's not going anywhere as much as people protest.
Only way they notice is if the team starts losing gobs of money... i.e. not renewing season tickets, etc.
Moderator
Even if you don't get him outright fired, if you make enough noise the new onwership group may look to at least remove him from overseeing the team. Then he can COO it up to heart's content.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Before someone jumps in with a "it's bullshit and you're an arse if you don't show up and support our team because of this, blah blah blah" I think it's worse off by renewing tickets than not when it comes to supporting those players and the football team itself.
The only way to success is to defeat the scourge, to defeat the scourge you have to hit them where they only care...money. Stop giving it to them, stop setting the market for them, stop supporting their massive fail, stop watching this fucking trainwreck. By doing so, you are in fact, supporting the goal of successful fucking football in Toronto. By contributing to their failure and allowing it to continue and be profitable, you are not supporting them in their fuck ups and continuing this mess of shit the players have to suffer through. To force them to make the change needed, they need to lose their supporters, their money, their fucking profits, it's that bloody simple.
We, as the fans, as THE fucking market, set the prices, set the value, set the rules. We just don't fucking realize it. IF every single SSH said you know what, fuck you MLSE and didn't renew.....WHO HAS ALL THE POWER NOW? Surely not them. They aren't going to play to an empty house and lose money hand over fist are they? We set the fucking price, we are the mob, we are the market, WE MAKE THE FUCKING RULES IF WE FUCKING REALIZE IT. We tell them what's fucking acceptable and what's not, what we're willing to pay and what we'll tolerate. Right now, we tolerate failure, we pay for $15 beer and whatever fucking ticket price they throw at us, we fucking tell them this is fucking OK and we're gonna sing for the boys anyways.
I think it's a bloody mirage if you think by paying and showing up you are supporting the team, but that's just my take on it.
By walking away you aren't giving up on the players, you're doing them a fucking favour. No player deserves to be subjected to this political shit and the only way, the absolute ONLY WAY is empty fucking seats.
I have never been so furious over a fucking sport club in my life. I want to kick every MLSE board member in the fucking teeth for the way they've treated Toronto, they deserve nothing less. I wish the masses would fucking get a clue and unite.
Change the structure and install proper roles with accountability. He can miser over his dollars but he needs to leave the operations of TFC alone.
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Great love does not exist without joy and without great suffering ,that's why One club is worth only as much as its fans !