I don't know enough about the league to know who's injured and of decent value beyond the recognizable names, but I did notice we have the longest report in the league. I think this could be the thinnest our roster has ever been with regards to preferable starters (that is, who's signed up on the payroll at the time and not who we consider to be worthy of a start).Originally Posted by ensco
Really? Red Bull Arena looked pretty empty tonight.
And they have a good team.
Here's a question I raised with Kurt Larson of the Sun...
The fact that we have so many injured players, does that normally not speak to poor fitness? Some of us may recall the heightened attention to fitness that came with Carver and how all of a sudden our injuries were lessened. How is it now that they have once again increased?
This is by far the most sensible post in this thread.
Yes, the club seemed to throw in the towel after the 3rd New York goal, and yes, Winter could have made tactical adjustments to avoid an embarassing scoreline, but at the end of the day, would it have really made a difference in the win/loss column, given the disparity in talent between the the two clubs on the pitch?
TFC has been decimated by injuries for several weeks now, and the B squad was also playing it's 3rd game in 7 days. At the very least, I'll cut them some slack after the huge victory on the weekend and judge the results starting July 20th.
Sorry if I missed it, but why didn't DeGuz play today?
My frustration comes in that that assumption is that Winter will turn into a good coach because we will have 2 good players coming in. When the truth is that his failings will still be there, they will just be masked by the exceptional play of players of better pedigree. But that's not the most efficient use of cap space nor of the team's available resources.
You don't put regular gas in a Ferrari my friend.
The greatest players in the world are still wasted if the coaching is poor.
Right. So Winter was a master tactician and motivator with a depleted squad last week and now he's a clueless moron again.
Anyway, regarding the lineup, it's not just Frings and Koevermans, it's also the 7 starters that are out of the lineup. I don't care what anyone says, any MLS club would struggle with similar injury concerns. But don't let me ruin the party. Some people would prefer to just shit all over the organization yet again without any sense of objectivity. Enjoy.
Good night all.
Struggle? Yes.
Lose 5-0. No.
A proper coach would see the deficiencies of his team and make adjustments. Winter did not. Stuck the ol'plan he did.
I feared that TFC winning the NCC would give Winter credibility he so definitely has not earned and low and behold that is exactly what has happened. Winter should be sending Vancouver a basket of whatever they want for shitting the bed and giving him breathing room because if they had shown up, you wouldn't be calling him a "master tactician". As someone classified it, it was the "Battle of the Brutals".
To me, the clueless part never left. Winning the NCC did not change my view of Winter one bit.
As for the motivator, most competent coaches would have capitalized on the confidence generated from the NCC win and kept the team running on all cylinders. They did not need a win tonight, not even a draw. Losing 1-0 would have been satisfactory if anything to maintain the player's confidence. What do you think a 5-0 loss does to their confidence?
Last edited by Roogsy; 07-06-2011 at 11:48 PM.
Objectivity? Give me a break.
I bleed red, I acknowledge the impact of injuries, and I say there's no evidence that Winter has any idea what he's doing. I don't think my position is that of a manic hater.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
What is this talk about an African DP coming to MLS?
Speculation is that it might be a GK for NYRB but I wonder who?
Don't think it's Drogba like some have implied.
Please for the love of god stop playing 4-3-3, its not working make an adjustment. When you're D is shit you should pack the midfield instead of leaving acres of space.
Meh, it wasn't too surprising.
I think people are reading way too much into the scoreline. Yes nobody wants to get embarrassed like that, but a tired, thin, and under-talented team, with a patchwork defense against the best offense in the league capitulated when they got down. It happens.
I would like to watch this team in the final 10 MLS matches and CCL play before making any real evaluations. That's pretty much how I've felt the whole season.
How about this for perspective.
NY played FC New York in the US Open Cup a few days ago and won 2-1. They're not even NASL. They're USL Pro.
They played the Fire before that, a team that is struggling as well and tied 1-1.
Their last win was against another poor team this year, New England and only beat them 2-1.
But somehow 5-0 is understandable?
I just can't see how it's even remotely acceptable.
I always thought the Paul Winsper hype was really odd, regardless of how good he supposedly was. Maybe I'm naive if I think we're having a streak of bad luck with injuries but I'm not ready judge Winter's fitness regime on such contemporary events.
On a side note, here's a good post game article with some good Henry quotes about our DP's
http://www.nj.com/redbulls/index.ssf...e_victory.html
an African GK as a DP? That could be worse then Mista.
Animals Eaten:
pig, cow, lamb, moose, chicken, quail, kudu, ostrich, kangaroo, octopus, alligator, rabbit, shark, springbok, goat, bison, boar, caterpillars, turkey, fish, lobster, crab, oyster, prawn, antelope, camel, eel, squid
It happens, yes, apparantly though it continues to happen to us and nobody else. Everybody loses, nobody loses as bad as we do, that's a fact that can be backed up by stats.
What was the NY roster for each of those matches?
5-0 is never acceptable, but your attempt to lump in all of those games together as if they are somehow equal is clear as day, Roogs.
John Rooney scored the winner for NYRB in that game.
-Cann got injured hitting a patch of bad turf at Cherry Beach.
-Williams did his knee in at the Gold Cup.
-Attakora injured in a game after a long layoff.
-JDG seems to be struggling with injuries relating back to last year. I saw him applying ice to his entire lower leg myself when I was covering the Gold Cup, so he played through it until it became unbearable.
-Gordon came to TFC injury prone.
-Santos... not sure what the original injury was, but he aggravated it reaching for that misplayed ball by Cannon on the weekend.
-Peterson... pulled/torn hammy.
-Tchani just came back from an ankle injury at the hands of Beckham.
-Bouchiba tore his knee in a preseason game.
Those seem to be the injuries (plus Nic Lindsay). Did I miss any?
Of those, Peterson, Santos and Gordon's could have been "preventable" depending on certain circumstances. Knee injuries are freak occurences that cannot be blamed on training, IMO.
C'mon people, let's not be so harsh !
This team just won the Voageurs Cup.
At least give them an oppurtunity to rest on their laurels.
It's all speculation.
Ives was hoping it was Vincent Enyeama as NYRB needs a new GK but he just signed with Lille.
I think this is quite a bit of an exageration though. I mean, I agree we have injuries and that will take it's toll, but you are lumping in guys who haven't played a game with TFC and guys who were injured in preseason. So if we look at something a bit more realistic, in my mind it goes like this:
Alan Gordon
Maicon Santos
Julian DeGuzman
Dicoy Williams
That's really the starters we were missing.
Nana would have been a nice backup to have. Then again, Winter wouldn't have played him because Harden is the man.
Bouchiba and the two new DPs cannot possibly be missed when they haven't played a single game with us. Stevanovic and Dero aren't on this team, so yes, TFC is TFC without them. Dero was traded for 2 players that were on the field today.
And let's not forget that they were missing Rafa. So in my opinion, this is closer to being TFC then you make it out to be.
A factor you also have to take into consideration is the fact that this was a red bulls side that has been critized for not putting away those easy games, so this was a team out to make a point tonight, they found the weakness and exploited it plain and simple
Don't worry guys. We're rebuilding. In year fucking five. But we're getting better! So let's not beat up on this team for being so so so so so terrible.
Yeah, it seems as though Backe threw out the kids against FC New York. Hardly surprising.
NYRB have been dealing with a ton of injuries/absences of their own. Tonight's was the first game in six or seven weeks in which they've had almost their entire preferred starting XI out there (they were only missing Marquez).
Their poor form was mostly due to international duties (Marquez, DeRo before he was traded, Richards, Ream, Agudelo, etc.) plus key players like Rodgers were also out for extended periods of time.
Plus their keepers went bonkers for a few games.
They now have everyone back, and should theoretically be firing on all cylinders for the remainder of the season if they stay healthy and Sutton can keep the brainfarts to a minimum.
That doesn't excuse 5-0, but given what TFC threw out there versus a top choice NY squad, I wasn't entirely surprised that they handed our asses to us on a silver platter.
Considering the circumstances, I'd wager that Attakora would be getting games if he were healthy. The point of including Steva/DeRo because the represent a significant hit to the salary cap that we've turned over and don't have access to until July 15th. I'll admit Bouchiba is a stretch tho, I had inactive salary cap hit in mind again.
The attitude of the new players will be telling.
We'll know after a few games if they have any faith in him or not.
Moderator
I think you make a good point. My one huge disappointment in this game is that the boys essentially gave up after those two quick goals shredded their confidence.
This game didn't need to end 5-0. Winter shares some blame in it, for not making tactical adjustments after New York clearly did.
Then again, I can't imagine it would have changed the result of the game - maybe just the scoreline.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Fuck that they're supposed to win it every year.
I wasn't expecting a win but this is the 3rd time we've embarrassed ourselves. 4 goals against an expansion side, 6 goals AT HOME to Philly, and now 5-0 to a New York team in a poor run of form.
The usual apologies for this club. If we were to listen to that, you'd think nobody else has injuries. Nobody else has roster struggles. Nobody else has any sort of struggles they have to work through. Toronto gets all the bad luck. Toronto gets all the bad breaks. The results aren't on our shoulders, they fall on lady luck.
Are all these games equal? No. Did any of them have the identical rosters. No. Did these opposing teams play the New York Red Bulls? Yes. Were the rosters mostly similar? Yes. Did any other team get blown out 5-0? No.
There is just one simple question that undoes your argument Rudi. Has any team in MLS this year lost to NY by a score of 5-0? At any point? Has anyone even come close??? At what point do we stop blaming the stars and the convergence of everything bad on TFC that all of a sudden disappears when these teams go on to play other teams. How much do you want to bet the next team NY plays doesn't get blown out 5-0? Has anyone else allowed Philly to score 6 goals? So then why did we?
At some point, the excuses have to stop and the evidence has to be analyzed for what it is. NY is a good team, but we're not talking Manchester United vs. Derby. Parity in this league means that by it's own structure, most teams are similar to each other. They have similar resources. They have similar struggles. They have similar payrolls. They draw from the same pool of players. The defining difference between each team is management's ability to make the best decisions and the coach's abilities to get the most out of their players. On both fronts, TFC fails. End the excuses. End the rationalizations. End the apologies. At some point, hold the team accountable.
Last edited by Roogsy; 07-07-2011 at 01:04 AM.
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