The Winter System

[menefreghista]

I've come to the conclusion that the absolute last thing the club should ever do is listen to the supporters.

The club should be doing this at all times anyways in terms of player selection and tactics. Mariner and Winter should not be influenced by the fans.

The only thing the club should be listening to supporter's about is stuff like making the game day experience better. The customer service portion of the club.

The funny thing is I would love to see this 'attractive' football Winter supporter's talk about. I haven't seen any of that yet. For stretches we've played some of our most boring soccer ever.

[ExiledRed]

The club should be doing this at all times anyways in terms of player selection and tactics. Mariner and Winter should not be influenced by the fans.

The funny thing is I would love to see this 'attractive' football Winter supporter's talk about. I haven't seen any of that yet. For stretches we've played some of our most boring soccer ever.

The way we finished against Edmonton last week was the worst anti-football Ive ever seen in my life.

[menefreghista]

The way we finished against Edmonton last week was the worst anti-football Ive ever seen in my life.

Yup.

I even saw one MLS watcher call our play 'anti-football' when commenting on our match against Seattle too.

Just because our coach is Dutch doesn't mean he can't have us playing boring soccer too. Often times I feel like I'm watching a traditional Italian style (slow build up from the back, attack on the counter) than a Dutch style.

[ManUtd4ever]

The way we finished against Edmonton last week was the worst anti-football Ive ever seen in my life.

True, but if it's deployed to protect a 3-0 lead, I can live with that...

[ExiledRed]

What is that supposed to mean? We don't close threads because of mere disagreements. Why the hate?




I guess you would have trouble with U-Sector then, their board is full of "don't stop believing." I guess they are sycophants.

I keep wondering why our board is the one that attracts people who spend their time insulting people who have at least some hope that we might be seeing a good future. We get called "sycophants" and "Leaf fans."

I was directly talking to, you not the collective you are referring to as 'we'

I dont care what is being said on U-sectors board, and dont see the relevance to this discussion.

If you feel insulted, then take consolation that Menfreghista was correct and I would never condescend to call you a 'sycophant' ( i mean that would be completely inaccurate wouldnt it?)

I do find it insulting however that the moment someone disagrees with your theory that everything is going 'according to plan' you infer that they lack knowledge, and question their support.

I mean, if everything is going as it should be, why are you asking for a price cut? Are you just trying to stay with the popular crowd again?

Other than RSL sucked and then got better, can you please illustrate why this means we are going to improve under Winter, and the similarities between Kreis's and Winter's approach?

[ExiledRed]

True, but if it's deployed to protect a 3-0 lead, I can live with that...

You dont need to protect a 3-0 lead when the opposition is defending and refuses to venture from its own half. Also with only a few miunutes to go, I dont think Edmonton were ever going to equalise.

[Huyton]

I'm beginning to think that Montreal will make the MLS playoffs before we do.

[Walnut]

I'm beginning to think that Montreal will make the MLS playoffs before we do.

Quoted for the truth!

[Beach_Red]

I'm beginning to think that Montreal will make the MLS playoffs before we do.

It's going to get a lot harder to make the MLS playoffs. The gap between the better teams and the rest is really starting to widen and that will just continue. Montreal is going to regret not getting in with Vancouver and Portland and falling even further behind.

[Walnut]

Montreal is going to regret not getting in with Vancouver and Portland and falling even further behind.

So true - Toronto has benefited enormously performance-wise from being fours years ahead of Vancouver!

[ExiledRed]

It's going to get a lot harder to make the MLS playoffs. The gap between the better teams and the rest is really starting to widen and that will just continue. Montreal is going to regret not getting in with Vancouver and Portland and falling even further behind.

Are they? apparently if you already have a team, you can skip 'building' or 're-building' and go straight to playing decent football and challenging for the playoffs.

This is why Seattle were doing well in season 1, while Toronto is still developing its plan in season 5 (apparently)

[Heathen]

After the first three seasons we wanted results. No matter how they come.

They brought in Preki and once his method wore thin and the results ran dry the masses started talking about the hatred of "anti football". We want attractive football.

So they go out and hire a guy who wants to completely overhaul the club and institute a possession based, attacking, attractive football style.

9 games in and people are back to wanting results. Nothing else matters. And the club is, and will always be a failure.

Hilarious.

I've come to the conclusion that the absolute last thing the club should ever do is listen to the supporters. Lol

[Sigh]
I honestly would be ok with losing all 9 games if we'd shown more indication that

1) There is an actual system
2) Winter looked like he might have some in-game tactical nouse
3) The new signings had shown more promise

From previous discussions I know in your opinion all of the above are true. This season I feel that any objective criticism of Winter is being characterized as wanting him sacked and impatient fairweather support. I'm going to stop now and I'll look forward to your reply but won't respond because I can't be bothered to get into all this again.

[Oldtimer]

I was directly talking to, you not the collective you are referring to as 'we'

Ok, for the sake of clarity, I do not close threads based on mere disagreement. I used "we" because "we" all have the same policy.

I have closed threads that were duplicates of existing threads. I have closed spam threads. I have closed threads that degenerated into insults. I do not close threads because I am optimistic and you are pessimistic.

Your snide remarks are totally inappropriate.

I do find it insulting however that the moment someone disagrees with your theory that everything is going 'according to plan' you infer that they lack knowledge, and question their support.

I mean, if everything is going as it should be, why are you asking for a price cut? Are you just trying to stay with the popular crowd again?

Don't put words in my mouth. I in no way inferred anything about your knowledge, and you know that.

[Oldtimer]

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...t=27878&page=2

80% approval rating for Winter.

[FreekAce]

True, but if it's deployed to protect a 3-0 lead, I can live with that...

yup, count in the fact that our schedule is murder, not continuing to go forward full steam was the smart thing to do. doesnt make for purdy football, but its an understandable tactic.

[ExiledRed]

yup, count in the fact that our schedule is murder, not continuing to go forward full steam was the smart thing to do. doesnt make for purdy football, but its an understandable tactic.

You're probably right, but it didnt help Saturday anyway.

We didnt need to go full steam, but there were times that we had real options to capitalise with practically zero danger of a counter, and yet we elected to pass it backward with no real intention of getting it forward again.

Ive seen teams do this a lot, and there is a high probability that the opposition decides they dont like what you're doing and suddenly bites your ass, making you look ridiculous.

[Dave67]

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...t=27878&page=2

80% approval rating for Winter.

Sure, I voted for approval.

That does not mean I'm happy with where TFC is at. I'm happy he is giving everyone a shot, that he does not take shit from the players, that he puts no one player higher than the club, that he kicked the media out of the dressing room when he felt it was required, that he calls a 3-0 win not a great game when it was not a great game. I approve of Winter and the process he is taking.

I am annoyed that he can't come up with a stategy to compete with the players he has. He must have determined who can and cannot play the system he wants. If he can't trade them away then he needs to adjust his game plan to make the team more effective.

My world includes room for grey, everything does not have to be black and white.

[Beach_Red]

Are they? apparently if you already have a team, you can skip 'building' or 're-building' and go straight to playing decent football and challenging for the playoffs.

This is why Seattle were doing well in season 1, while Toronto is still developing its plan in season 5 (apparently)

It's "going to get" harder to make the playoffs. MLS is becoming like every other league with a few teams ahead of the pack. Because of the salary cap the biggest difference between teams in MLS is management - senior management as well as coaching. Teams like Seattle and Vancouver realized that and hired more experienced - and more - people for their front offices. Vancouver stuck with a coach they'd had for years and Seattle poached a winning MLS coach.

TFC had its chance and blew it. They went with an inexperienced FO and rotated one inexperienced coach after another. I think the team will get better but until they hire a president with a winning track record and let him run the team and answer to the baord and not some MLSE suits they won't win any MLS Cups. Mariner seems like a good guy and he has a good record of finding players in the USA but he has to deal with MLSE. I think we underestimate the keen survival instincts and political skill of those guys.

It remains to be seen if Montreal will put together the kind of FO needed to build a winning team.

[FreekAce]

You're probably right, but it didnt help Saturday anyway.

We didnt need to go full steam, but there were times that we had real options to capitalise with practically zero danger of a counter, and yet we elected to pass it backward with no real intention of getting it forward again.

Ive seen teams do this a lot, and there is a high probability that the opposition decides they dont like what you're doing and suddenly bites your ass, making you look ridiculous.

factor in that it IS tfc and the probability lies even higher
thankfully none of that happened.
as for the results on saturday, i was hoping for a better result, think we could've done so, but realisticly wasnt expecting much. and i dont mind losing, but i cant stand a team that looks like they're not giving their all. no bigger insult to the 12th. the Legion deserves better.

[trane]

^ I almost assure you that Montreal will have a better FO from the get go, due to the fact that they have had a professional team for much longer then we did. So far every team that has had a past history of being a football club, have done better.

[FreekAce]

I am annoyed that he can't come up with a stategy to compete with the players he has. He must have determined who can and cannot play the system he wants. If he can't trade them away then he needs to adjust his game plan to make the team more effective.

keep in mind though that for winters system, players need to be able to be flexible, (and yes our depth in this department is very poor) and the only way winter is going to figure these type of things out is trial by fire. playing a player out of position in training is not going to be enough.
winter will need to see them playing actual games. trial and error are part of a rebuild, especially with what they are trying to implement in TO.
so as frustrating as it is to constantly see line up changes, and players being put in different positions, and losing very badly as a result of this, we have to keep in mind that there are reasons for it happening. and that as a result of these things our players will A get better and more familiar, and B the people that dont cut it will most likely be shipped out first chance they have. seeing how we are limited in how many players we can move, aquire and pay, this also is something that cannot be done overnight. in the end, patience is required, and even though i know we've been beaten to death with the "its going to take time" slogan, looking at things objectively, thats exactly what it will take.

my 2

[jabbronies]

Ya...9 games in and you are pissed that the team isn't playing the best football in North America?

I think you guys should at least give it until the summer transfer window before you start calling out the manager for being incompetent.

We all know we have holes in the team, but honestly, where do you think the competent replacements will come from?

At this point in time the only place I can see them coming from is either over-seas, which I'm sure our we already at max capacity with or The Academy - which we are seeing guys come up from.

If you guys know a secret vault that holds great players for any team to just come and take at will, please let us and the team know.

If you think there are MLS teams that are just going to hand us players for free - well good luck with that line of thinking.

As for the system - i've seen attempts at possession football, but then the team reverts to frantic booting of the ball around. That's going to happen until:
A. We get guys who can play that game or;
B. The players we have learn to play that way and in the case of an academy kid - matures into proper footballers.

[mastermixer]

Just hypothetical... what if in three years Winter decides to jump ship. Do we maintain the Winter type culture of this team? That does limit the coaching candidates we can hire in the future significantly. Say for example a Sigi Scmidt type coach becomes available during our search, does that mean we have to ignore this because he does not fit our culture?

This is fine for the Barcelona's and Dutch teams where there are lines of coaches available and biting to take over their teams, but this could pose a problem for Toronto in the future.

[ExiledRed]

Just hypothetical... what if in three years Winter decides to jump ship. Do we maintain the Winter type culture of this team? That does limit the coaching candidates we can hire in the future significantly. Say for example a Sigi Scmidt type coach becomes available during our search, does that mean we have to ignore this because he does not fit our culture?

This is fine for the Barcelona's and Dutch teams where there are lines of coaches available and biting to take over their teams, but this could pose a problem for Toronto in the future.

Be assured that the next coach will want to use his own 'system' and traditionally that means gutting a team and starting over.

Usually, the best way to maintain a culture is to have an excellent coach at the outset, and younger assistants who are able to take up the reigns, have intimate knowledge of the 'system' and players, and are familiar to the fans.

This worked for Shankly>Paisley>Fagan>Dalglish, which might be the only example of a club I can think of, that maintained a specific system and culture and went through four coaches that rose through the ranks, without losing its winning ways.

Souness' belief that he could do things his way, destroyed the culture and system of the club in a season.

[mastermixer]

Be assured that the next coach will want to use his own 'system' and traditionally that means gutting a team and starting over.

Great, so much for Paul Beirnes "20 year plan"

[Oldtimer]

The Ajax way is to develop coaches who all coach the same style. I'm sure the plan is to have DD or Jimmy B. coach the senior side down the stream.

[spark]

The Ajax way is to develop coaches who all coach the same style. I'm sure the plan is to have DD or Jimmy B. coach the senior side down the stream.

Haha DD i agree but with Jimmy be I think the plan is to keep him as far away from decision making as possible.

[FreekAce]

^could you tell us why that is oh enlightened one?

[Derko]

^could you tell us why that is oh enlightened one?

I wonder that as well.