I am not worried-I believe

[ensco]

There is a specific consequence to saying "I believe" prematurely.

Winter strikes me as very comfortable, and certain of himself to a degree that seems extreme given his resume.

Is it in our interest for him to be that comfortable? The likelihood of a couple of lost years while he turns the whole team over and implements his "system", is not small. As an SSH, I'm not that interested in underwriting that, in a league where others seem able to achieve results and build simultaneously.

Not saying I don't believe...speaking for myself, I am really impressed by Mariner, and liked the Dero trade. But I just have no idea how you know that everything is fine with such certainty, or why you would want to declare yourself satisfied so definitively, so quickly.

[Whoop]

Storming the field at the end of the first year is one of my best memories to date of being a TFC fan!

I know...

I meant in protest. LOL

[Walnut]

It's sad that this thread has gone the way it has. How is it acceptable for pessimists to outright flame people who are seeing positives about the team we support on a Red Patch Boys supporters board? Discussion should be encouraged, but, fuck me, why do we let these people dominate our boards?? How does seeing positives AND negatives turn you into a 'fanboy' or 'Kool aid drinker' around here?? It gets really tiresome. The sad part is, we lose quality contributors to the board because these clowns are in every thread spewing their anti-TFC bullshit.

Well said -- there are lots of positives to be taken from last match. The sunset was stunning, that guy won 12 pizzas, it didn't rain, we didn't lose 7-0, and it was only moderately freezing.

It is this kind of buoyant spirit that will help lift the team up. Defeatist elements are the enemy that is holding the team back!

[__wowza]

All those things don't guarantee an improvement on the field, which is what it's all about.

This team is owned by a disfunctional organisation.
I applaud their efforts to try and improve but the squad is no stronger now than at the beginning and fan apathy is at an all time low. It's going to be hard to convince a lot of those supporters to return.

Don't forget MLSE owns the biggest ice hockey team in the world and they know more about hockey than soccer, but the Leafs are a joke and haven't won the Cup since 1967.

now your specifying improvement on the field, and that i agree with you on. there's a difference though, in our first year, i didn't see us improving at all. i didn't look at the team and say "this organization has a plan! we're going places!" i didn't do that last year, i didn't do it the year before that or the one before that.

this year they've made me believe that we have a plan.
all we can do is be patient.

i don't expect an academy to pay off immediately, nor do i expect the 5 (i'd incorrectly quoted as 4) academy grads to make the starting XI right away. look at it this way, we have 4 (lindsay's injured) potential starters against edmonton, who're playing in the reserve league, that means we can potentially rest some of our first teamers for league action.. and we're barely making a dent in the salary cap because they're home grown.

[Beach_Red]

There is a specific consequence to saying "I believe" prematurely.

Winter strikes me as very comfortable, and certain of himself to a degree that seems extreme given his resume.

Is it in our interest for him to be that comfortable? The likelihood of a couple of lost years while he turns the whole team over and implements his "system", is not small. As an SSH, I'm not that interested in underwriting that, in a league where others seem able to achieve results and build simultaneously.

Not saying I don't believe...speaking for myself, I am really impressed by Mariner, and liked the Dero trade. But I just have no idea how you know that everything is fine with such certainty, or why you would want to declare yourself satisfied so definitively, so quickly.

Just for the sake of discussion, I'd say there is also a danger in being led by someone who's not comfortable - maybe comfortable isn't even the right word, maybe it's "secure" and the opposite would be insecure.

Winter and Mariner have three year contracts. For years we had coaches and a GM on one year contracts with options, so for all the talk of multi-year plans what they were really doing was working to get the option picked up which meant short-term decisions took priority over any building.

[Walnut]

Just for the sake of discussion, I'd say there is also a danger in being led by someone who's not comfortable - maybe comfortable isn't even the right word, maybe it's "secure" and the opposite would be insecure.

Winter and Mariner have three year contracts. For years we had coaches and a GM on one year contracts with options, so for all the talk of multi-year plans what they were really doing was working to get the option picked up which meant short-term decisions took priority over any building.

This is one of the better things that have come out of this -- we have a commitment for a longer term plan.

[Oldtimer]

It's sad that this thread has gone the way it has. How is it acceptable for pessimists to outright flame people who are seeing positives about the team we support on a Red Patch Boys supporters board? Discussion should be encouraged, but, fuck me, why do we let these people dominate our boards?? How does seeing positives AND negatives turn you into a 'fanboy' or 'Kool aid drinker' around here?? It gets really tiresome. The sad part is, we lose quality contributors to the board because these clowns are in every thread spewing their anti-TFC bullshit.

People come on here for various reasons, not always related to support. Most are fans of the sport in some way.

Our board is different from the NEE's one, who made a decision last year to close their board to non-members.

It's really either-or. If we allow all and sundry on, then we can't complain if they are negative. The board has some basic rules, but you don't have to be positive, or even a supporter to be on here.

[Whoop]

Just for the sake of discussion, I'd say there is also a danger in being led by someone who's not comfortable - maybe comfortable isn't even the right word, maybe it's "secure" and the opposite would be insecure.

Winter and Mariner have three year contracts. For years we had coaches and a GM on one year contracts with options, so for all the talk of multi-year plans what they were really doing was working to get the option picked up which meant short-term decisions took priority over any building.

There is some truth to that.

You see guys trying to save their jobs "say screw the future" with the attitude of a) "if I'm gone, it will be the new guy's problem" or b) "if I stay, I'll deal with it later."

Same happens with players in the last year of their contract trying to get a new contract. Hence the term "he only plays well when he's playing for a contract."

[flatpicker]

This thread made me think of this song.
Perhaps it should be added to our repertoire.



I used to be on an endless run
Believed in miracles 'cuz I'm one
I've been blessed with the power to survive
After all these years I'm still alive

Oh I believe in miracles
I believe in a better world for me and you
Oh Oh I believe in miracles
I believe in a better world for me and you

[Shep]

It's sad that this thread has gone the way it has. How is it acceptable for pessimists to outright flame people who are seeing positives about the team we support on a Red Patch Boys supporters board? Discussion should be encouraged, but, fuck me, why do we let these people dominate our boards?? How does seeing positives AND negatives turn you into a 'fanboy' or 'Kool aid drinker' around here?? It gets really tiresome. The sad part is, we lose quality contributors to the board because these clowns are in every thread spewing their anti-TFC bullshit.

Yeah I learned shortly after I joined the boards that it's in my best interest not to spend too much time in the general forums... they reek of internet drama. Ppl just getting caught up in circular arguments. It's almost like a youtube comment page. So I just check in once in a while for jokes.

The RPB section is where it's at. A LOT less whingy pessimism.

[trane]

Well said -- there are lots of positives to be taken from last match. The sunset was stunning, that guy won 12 pizzas, it didn't rain, we didn't lose 7-0, and it was only moderately freezing.

It is this kind of buoyant spirit that will help lift the team up. Defeatist elements are the enemy that is holding the team back!

This is like my first "positive" thread, in a long, long time. I even resnet being called positive, but we have sucked, we have been going nowere, now we are trying to turn the ship. I am happy that at least the organization recognized the need for real and deep change, it is a start.

I have been called negative, a non-supproter, ect. ect, but I always just called it as I saw it, now I see that we are trying to built a great team, I am happy about that.

Right now I am believing the message.

[Waggy]

Wow this thread turned depressing quick. I think I'm done with these boards for a while. To pull a Sports Guy and reference Shawshank- Hope is a beautiful thing, and hope never dies. If your hope is dead then I don't know why you're on this board, or watching Toronto FC games. It's not like this is a lifetime commitment, this is a new team in a new league. Don't like it? Go back to supporting your old team. Coming on here and whining isn't doing anything. Think the team is fucked till MLSE sells? Don't follow the team till MLSE sells! Think the team is fucked until Winter gets fired or makes x change? DONT FOLLOW THE TEAM UNTIL WINTER DOES IT! Following a sports team is supposed to be fun, whether the team is winning or losing. If it's not fun, no-ones putting a gun to your head. No-one is making you follow the team, or like it, or be positive or anything. But you don't have to be a dick and bother those of us who still ENJOY following this team. Who LIKE watching soccer. Who want to have intelligent conversations about the direction of the club and the league. Maybe talk tactics, maybe talk personelle, maybe talk potential trades or lineups. This board has turned into a place populated by 70-80% of posters who are essentially trolling the other 20%. And if you think we 20% are crazy then that's fine. We probably are. But we're happy as we are, just leave us be. Jesus.

/end rant


edit: and to clarify, there is a difference between criticism and being negative. Criticsm is of course part of being a sports fan. But constant misery, whining and sky is falling claims aren't. It's one thing to be concerned, or worried. It's another to basically say "I am not happy, and won't be happy until this team becomes a powerhouse. And until that day happens everyone else will hear about my pissed offness EVERY DAY!"

[Walnut]

Criticsm is of course part of being a sports fan. But constant misery, whining and sky is falling claims aren't.

As a lifelong West Ham fan, I can assure you that constant misery is indeed part of being a supporter of that club.

[AmherstNY_TFC]

TFC in Year Five is sort of like having a credit card that keeps raising the credit limit: eventually, the bill comes due.

We are all angry that we have spent the last four years plowing our hearts, our souls, our time, and our hard-earned money into a club that has been so poorly run for the last four years. I think we all agree that there was no over-arching plan for continued success. Everything was done with an eye towards short-term success. Whenever things went south (and they did most of the time) management gave us a short-term fix: cashier the coach, bring in a Canadian star player, bring in a player via trade, etc.

How many of our Super Draft picks are in the first-team squad, let alone the starting 11? I think Frei is the only one. Management has whiffed on trades. Other than DeRo, how many players has TFC traded for that provided a lasting contribution? They have signed two Designated Players. One was a flop (Mista), and one hasn't lived up to expectations (JDG).

When those areas are #FAIL, you're left with signing "street" free agents, and most of those guys aren't attached to any club is for a reason. The cupboard is bare after four years of whiffing on 90% of the personnel decisions. We are, in effect, the third expansion team.

We're all feeling used and abused, and we feel like there's no light at the end of the tunnel. But, we can't fool ourselves that there is some "quick fix" out there that is going to have this team playing an up-tempo attacking system and winning matches on a consistent basis. "quick fix" solutions got us into this mess. The is no Designated Player that is going to come in and change this team's fortunes overnight.

At the very least, the new management team seems to have identified the problems, and is always looking to improve the club. Look at the signing of Eckersley. It is a statement that the club is not satisfied with its current roster, and wants to add a player that can potentially make it better. While the squad had to be blown up, not every player can be shown the door.

I'm willing to hang in there because I, too, believe that there is a plan, and that the management team is in place to make that plan a reality. They are willing to make a bold trade to get the team in the right direction. We tough it out because we hope that we'll be rewarded for our suffering. Building a team from scratch does not happen overnight. There will be bumps in the road (like last Saturday), but I am not giving up my seat. I am not giving up my support, and will continue to cheer the boys on regardless.

[trane]

^ I gave up my seat last year, before they brought in the new guys.

[Jeffro]

People come on here for various reasons, not always related to support.

True, a lot of people are just here to troll, fan the flames and argue, and while we cater to their 'free speech' we'll continue to lose the efforts and opinions of our valued members.

I don't object to having opposing points of view and discussion about them. There are many people on this board who I disagree with on many issues. I don't begrudge them their opinions or their place here to discuss them. I begrudge the unneccesary flame ware in every thread, and in particular, this thread, that was started from a perspective of rationality. Trane says he sees some positives for the future and suddenly he's a kool-aid drinker who thinks we're going to win the cup this year.

[trane]

^ I agree Jeffro at some point free discusion kills true discourse.

[tfcleeds]

In response to Amherst's post:

Agreed. As much as it's painful to say so, we really have to look at this as being Year 1 all over again. That is how much having Mo around for 4 years hindered the progress of this club. There will be growing pains under Winter/Mariner, but I would like to believe that the next 4 years will be more fruitful than the first 4. Only time will tell.

[sashavukelich]

^ I gave up my seat last year, before they brought in the new guys.

moi aussi, i'm on the list back for it now. i miss it! lol so i bought a partial package

[trane]

^ I am going to get back on the list, for some prawnies I think, and just get as many tickets as possible of people.

[Walnut]

^ I am going to get back on the list, for some prawnies I think, and just get as many tickets as possible of people.

Should be no problem getting seats by renewal time.

[jazzy]

This is like my first "positive" thread, in a long, long time. I even resnet being called positive, but we have sucked, we have been going nowere, now we are trying to turn the ship. I am happy that at least the organization recognized the need for real and deep change, it is a start.

I have been called negative, a non-supproter, ect. ect, but I always just called it as I saw it, now I see that we are trying to built a great team, I am happy about that.

Right now I am believing the message.

it's too easy finding shit in the world, sometimes mindless hope is essential,...tempered of course, but a relief all the same,.......thats why I enjoy a soccer excursion,....and everything that ensuses......... thread is a nice change,.....

[trane]

^ tempered is a good word. I have a temepred believe that we can turn this around this year.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I love this thread. First time I've ever rated one.Thanks trane.

[Wull]

I find it funny how those of us that were probably the most critical of preki's reign now have a little faith and optimism and are supposedly drinking the kool-aid.

I'll freeze my ass off in a green t-shirt on a cold night again if and when need be but it won't be for a while if it's related to our coaching staff and results on the field.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I find it funny how those of us that were probably the most critical of preki's reign now have a little faith and optimism and are supposedly drinking the kool-aid.

I'll freeze my ass of in a green t-shirt on a cold night again if and when need be but it won't be for a while if it's related to our coaching staff and results on the field.

...with green tape over my mouth

[ExiledRed]

I find it funny how those of us that were probably the most critical of preki's reign now have a little faith and optimism and are supposedly drinking the kool-aid.

I'll freeze my ass off in a green t-shirt on a cold night again if and when need be but it won't be for a while if it's related to our coaching staff and results on the field.

Its like bizarro world.

There were people who were calling for Mo's head during his first pre-season and Condemning his stubborn attempt at getting the team to play 3-5-2. After every game, even after games we won, the calls would get louder. It wasnt like Winter's criticisms:

"maybe he's inexperienced" "maybe he's playing the wrong system for the players availabe"

Mo got:

"He's a dirty fuckheid, he know nothing, Bruce Arena would be better, Mo should be dropped in Lake Ontario with concrete blocks around his feet..etc...etc..."

Remember those days, Trane?

[Pachuco]

You can always switch to Whitecaps no one is holding the gun on your head to follow TFC.

So basically, if you don't think TFC is thre greatest team to ever play in the history of the world you should just change and support another team.

The guy was calling it as he sees it.

[Pachuco]

Well I guess I'm nuts.

For the first time in 5 years I'm optimistic.

We have a coach that is trying to implement a brand new style...from the academy right on up.

We have a coach that doesn't take shut from his players and wants a team above all else.

Gone are the days of hoofing the ball up field for no reason.

Growing pains are to expected imo.

It's funny that people can predict doom and gloom after 5-6 games. Kreskins everywhere. Lol

Only time will tell. What should happen in the meantime?

Fire winter?
Pine for deros return?
Continue to whine about opposing players who gloat when they score?

Fuck that.
This is the first time since season 1 where I think grinning and bearing it is required.

Just my take. We will get better.

The same way you are predicting the team will get better, is the same way people are predicting it won't. Not sure what confuses you so much there. You are contradicting yourself. If you believe, it's because you like what you see, if you don't, it's because you don't like what you see.

Me, I'm in wait and see mode. I don't see a reason to predict either way at this point. But I see no problem with other people going on something they see. After all, it took me 2 games to get on the fire Preki bandwagon.

[Wull]

Its like bizarro world.

There were people who were calling for Mo's head during his first pre-season and Condemning his stubborn attempt at getting the team to play 3-5-2. After every game, even after games we won, the calls would get louder. It wasnt like Winter's criticisms:

"maybe he's inexperienced" "maybe he's playing the wrong system for the players availabe"

Mo got:

"He's a dirty fuckheid, he know nothing, Bruce Arena would be better, Mo should be dropped in Lake Ontario with concrete blocks around his feet..etc...etc..."

Remember those days, Trane?

Mo has baggage among certain sections of fans from years before he got here