Official - Dero on trial with CELTIC

[Pookie]

Before this season, the average age of a MLS MVP was 34 (Ferreira is 31, so its dropped slightly). Thats not the average age of a serviceable player, or bench player, or starter, or good player...thats the average age of the best player in the entire league.

Actually, that's not true.

The average age is 30. Do the math, age during the season he won it in brackets:

'96 - Valderrama (35)
'97 - Preki (34)
'98 - Etcheverry (28)
'99 - Kreis (27)
'00 - Meloa (31)
'01 - Chacon (32)
'02 - Ruiz (23)
'03 - Preki (40)
'04 - Guevara (28)
'05 - Twellman (25)
'06 - Gomez (32)
'07 - Emillio (29)
'08 - GBS (35)
'09 - Donovan (27)
'10 - Ferreira (31)

Average = 30.47

Take out Preki as an outlier (one player, 2 awards +34 years never done before or again) average dips to 29.46. Take out Ruiz as an outlier on the younger side (youngest ever), average is 30.

If you point is "that's the average age of the best player in the entire league" , DeRo is on the wrong side of the average. Again, this isn't a 100% argument on either side of the equation. There have been players, such as Preki that made significant contributions, the league's best, as "veteran" players in this league.

But if this were a poker game, the odds are not in DeRo's favour. Age is something none of us can escape. I freakin' hurt myself sleeping now

As for your comments about the team and people wanting to come here, I guess we'll see what the future holds. Clearly, this club reeks of failure and I can't see why that would be attractive to anyone... regardless of how "DeRo" was treated. I have just as many criticisms for Pauly B and Tommy A about the way this organization is run but I don't feel this is a factor in this case.

Having talked to a few players, I'm not so sure that DeRo will be "missed" as much as some people think.

[Pachuco]

Forget the "permission" or train vs trial.

The Pro-DeRo camp will never see fact. If DeRo's intention is to train then he supposedly doesn't need paperwork so just go ahead and train already... if 1 week of "training" is worth all this shit splattered on your reputation.

Facts are, legal advice on all sides has stopped this trial. Celtic clearly were in this to "get a look at the player", that isn't training. They talked openly about the possibility of signing.

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. The player needs to move on.

From a league perspective, this "model" for future MLS franchises has cast a stink over the crowning jewel in the MLS marketing bag... a star player from a developmental league earning a trial in Europe. This, after smearing the MLS Cup with protest and controversy... and the lowest ratings ever. But I digress, back to DeRo.

A few fans say we'll never replace a DeRo but what I can't understand is why they can't grasp the simple of concept of aging.

We may never find a goal scorer that could replace what DeRo accomplished at the age of 30 or 31. That's debatable but hey, a fair point.

But DeRo turns 33 at the 1/3 mark of this coming season. Will a 33 year old Dero be able to replicate (or better) what a 30 year old DeRo did? That's what we have in front of us.

Seems to me we are looking to replace a historical achievement not necessarily the promise of present day, guaranteed, production.

I always get a giggle at the assumption that Dero's going to turn into a pumpkin when he turns 33. The guy at 32 was one of the best players in the MLS, at the top of his game last year and in pretty damn good shape. I don't even remember him being hurt last year. But yet, because he turns 33...1/3 of the way during the season, he's too old to keep.

As for your comment:

Will a 33 year old Dero be able to replicate (or better) what a 30 year old DeRo did?

A 32 year old Dero did....so it's not totally unthinkable that he can't do it again. In fact, it's not unthinkable that a 34 year old can maintain the same pace.

[Roogsy]

The Pro-DeRo camp will never see fact. If DeRo's intention is to train then he supposedly doesn't need paperwork so just go ahead and train already... if 1 week of "training" is worth all this shit splattered on your reputation.

Billy said it best. If you hated DeRo before you hate him even more. If you loved DeRo before this hasn't changed your opinion.

Facts have nothing to do with this. You have no complete facts. Therefore you cannot come to a certain conclusion, only a hypothesis.

[Pookie]

^ I think when legal teams weigh in on it and all sides agree that the player must stop training until paperwork is signed we can be pretty clear that there was no paperwork.

End of story.

Looking forward to seeing if a non-DeRo led team can actually get into the playoffs.

[ensco]

I always get a giggle at the assumption that Dero's going to turn into a pumpkin when he turns 33.

I don't think that's what he's saying.

I think it's more the case that, whatever happens, Dero getting $400K on one year deals feels right, and is probably about what his market value is, in MLS, or at a Celtic.

[CretanBull]

Actually, that's not true.
The average age is 30. Do the math, age during the season he won it in brackets:

Sorry, my mistake - I manually added Ferreira to the list that I had, then divided by 14 and not 15 (also, the list had MarK Chung as the 2002 winner, but the wiki page has Ruiz listed as the 2002 winner?).

In any event, my point was that while DeRo is getting older he hasn't shown any signs of declining...despite not having anyone to work with, he's had two of his best years, being named to the league's best XI etc. If he's looking for a $1 million a year for 5 years I wouldn't give it to him, but for 2 years? I wouldn't think twice about it, he's earned it and it would go a long way towards putting the Mo era behind us.

[CretanBull]

^ I think when legal teams weigh in on it and all sides agree that the player must stop training until paperwork is signed we can be pretty clear that there was no paperwork.

End of story.

No paperwork, but not necessarily no permission - or not necessarily that it was understood that paper work was needed if permission had be granted, or no paperwork if it was training and not trialing etc. DeRo's contract for 2011 is an option year for the club, if they haven't exercised that option is he even under contract with TFC?

[Roogsy]

^ I think this issue was raised particularly when Celtic's manager referred to DeRo's training with them as a "look" at the player. TFC can claim that is what makes this a trial and not training and therefore the papers would need to be filed.

[Pookie]

But yet, because he turns 33...1/3 of the way during the season, he's too old to keep.

Hold on now. I never said he wasn't too old to keep. In fact, I've stated way back in this thread that on his current contract terms, we'd be silly not to consider keeping him.

However, he isn't looking at coming back on his current contract terms. He wants that ripped up. He wants the DP tag and salary to go along with it. Since HE is forcing the issue, it is prudent business to ask am I investing in an asset that is going to rise in value, maintain it, or decline over the term HE is asking me to commit to.

Clearly, aging players drop off in production. Will it be next year? Maybe. The year after? Maybe. The year after that? Maybe. Point is that a drop off WILL happen at some point and when it does do I have years remaining on my "investment" that will handcuff the team moving forward?

As for your comment:

Will a 33 year old Dero be able to replicate (or better) what a 30 year old DeRo did?

A 32 year old Dero did....so it's not totally unthinkable that he can't do it again. In fact, it's not unthinkable that a 34 year old can maintain the same pace.

It's not unthinkable. But which is a more likely scenario? He will beat the odds and continue on into his late 30's and early 40's like Preki? Or that he will follow the common trend and witness a decline in his skill set?

Investing in older players, significantly investing in them, DP slot and all, is risky.

For example, Angel is 35 yet no one wants him on a DP contract.

For example, Christian Gomez was 32 when he won the MLS MVP. When he was 33, he tallied 10 goals and 9 assists and got an All Star award for his credit.

When he was 34? He scored 3. When he was 36? He was playing for a USSF Division II team in Miami.

You can't predict the future but if you play the odds, you generally win your share of poker games.

[Suds]

Sorry, my mistake - I manually added Ferreira to the list that I had, then divided by 14 and not 15 (also, the list had MarK Chung as the 2002 winner, but the wiki page has Ruiz listed as the 2002 winner?).

In any event, my point was that while DeRo is getting older he hasn't shown any signs of declining...despite not having anyone to work with, he's had two of his best years, being named to the league's best XI etc. If he's looking for a $1 million a year for 5 years I wouldn't give it to him, but for 2 years? I wouldn't think twice about it, he's earned it and it would go a long way towards putting the Mo era behind us.

I think this is the crux of the debate - for me anyway. What is DeRo asking for? Do we know is actual demands? How much more? For how long?

For me, if it were a few hundred thousand more/year for the next couple of years I would have no issue with that. If he's asking for more than double his salary for 5 years then I'm not on board with that.

Does anyone know just how far apart DeRo's current contract with TFC and what he wants it to be is?

[Pookie]

^ not sure and I really don't care about the salary. The Cap hit on a DP is less than his hit right now.

The issue for me is the DP slot and how long is his contract. There are only 3 DP slots available. Getting DeRo in one does NOTHING to improve the team. It essentially gives you the status quo... 2 years of missed playoffs. Add in that JDG has the other... well, yeah, there you go. Status quo.

If he is asking for more than 2 years, we are tying up that DP slot in a player that according to the odds and principles of aging, will witness a decline in his skill set. Who wants to be handcuffed to that?

[Roogsy]

For example, Angel is 35 yet no one wants him on a DP contract.

What age was he when he did sign his DP contract?

[v00d00daddy]

What are we arguing about him "doing again"?

scoring 15 goals a season?

sure, he is more than capable of doing that again.

he is also capable and likely to do the following AGAIN:

-hog the ball
-make nobody around him better
-fail to play within a system
-demand more money

What exactly has the addition of Dero brought TFC....other than the goals?

Answer: a bullshit trophy (ncc) and a whole lot of headaches.

worth 30 goals?

not to me

[Roca]

^ I think this issue was raised particularly when Celtic's manager referred to DeRo's training with them as a "look" at the player. TFC can claim that is what makes this a trial and not training and therefore the papers would need to be filed.

The Brit media seems to have a pretty straightforward take on things.
Celtic says the situation has been resolved. From the Sporting Life web site today:

"[Celtic manager Neil] Lennon will also continue to monitor Dwayne De Rosario after his club, Toronto FC, and Major League Soccer claimed they had not authorised the Canada international to train with the Parkhead club.
The former Celtic skipper said: "I think it was an administrative problem but that has been resolved so he can carry on."


http://www.sportinglife.com/football...&TEAMHD=soccer


BBC Sport claims De Ro is "considering a move" and is "in the middle of a contract dispute" with TFC. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...ic/9322943.stm)


Sorry if this is a duplicate post.

[Pookie]

What age was he when he did sign his DP contract?

32.

3 years, 58 goals later and he passes through a Waiver draft on his current contract terms. LA picked him up in the 2nd stage.

[CretanBull]

I think this is the crux of the debate - for me anyway. What is DeRo asking for? Do we know is actual demands? How much more? For how long?

For me, if it were a few hundred thousand more/year for the next couple of years I would have no issue with that. If he's asking for more than double his salary for 5 years then I'm not on board with that.

Does anyone know just how far apart DeRo's current contract with TFC and what he wants it to be is?

What I heard during last season (before the check-writing incident) was that he wanted a 3 year deal at $1 million per year. What wasn't understood was if that meant $1 million retro-active to include the year that he was in, plus two more years at $1 million, or if that meant playing out last year on his current salary then 3 new years at $1 million per year. I *think* it was the former because it was prompted by the signing of Mista, at that point making DeRo the 3rd DP would have actually cut our salary-cap total and made more money available to sign additional help.

[Roogsy]

32.

3 years, 58 goals later and he passes through a Waiver draft.

LOL!

I like that slant.

How many goals did he have last year at the ripe old age of 34? That is 2 years older than DeRo?

[reggie]

What are we arguing about him "doing again"?

scoring 15 goals a season?

sure, he is more than capable of doing that again.

he is also capable and likely to do the following AGAIN:

-hog the ball
-make nobody around him better
-fail to play within a system
-demand more money

What exactly has the addition of Dero brought TFC....other than the goals?

Answer: a bullshit trophy (ncc) and a whole lot of headaches.

worth 30 goals?

not to me

what a stupid statement that is, he is there to score goals,im sorry if he didnt make peterson,barrett,mista better players.

[Pookie]

Not a slant. It's fact.

Just like Christian Gomez who 3 years after getting an MLS All Star award was playing in USSF Division II.

Skills drop and when they do, they drop.

Again, I can't predict the future but I can highlight that the odds of a player continuing to perform into his 30s are stacked heavily against him.

[Roogsy]

Not a slant. It's fact.

It's a slant when you selectively use facts by picking and choosing what to use to back up your point.

Again, how many goals did Angel score at 34 (actually turned 35 in October), 2 year older than DeRo?

[v00d00daddy]

what a stupid statement that is, he is there to score goals,im sorry if he didnt make peterson,barrett,mista better players.

thats where we disagree

he is paid to do a lot more than score goals. especially being named captain.

he scores....that's undeniable

what is up for debate is whether or not he makes us better.

I thinks it's a wash...at best

there are a lot if negatives that come along with those goals.

[jloome]

what a stupid statement that is, he is there to score goals,im sorry if he didnt make peterson,barrett,mista better players.

He's a midfielder. He actually IS there to make forwards better. He's not there to score 15 goals. That's a striker's job.

Of course we'll take it. But that wasn't voodoo's point, which is that one player excelling does not make a team better. On occasions, because he is a clutch player, he has pulled out a big game for us. But our offense has to be designed around him because he's a transparently individual player.

So, not a stupid statement.

[Roogsy]

he is paid to do a lot more than score goals. especially being named captain.

I am not going to get in the middle of an argument of what position DeRo plays and what the job of a striker/attacking midfielder/midfielder is. Especially considering TFC has used him all over the place.

However I will point out that he was not brought here to be made captain. His first season he wasn't captain and he didn't start the 2nd season as captain either. In fact, once made captain, TFC went on a tear and had a massive May. Then things fell apart. So arguments can be formulated to argue pretty much anything.

[Waggy]

Pookie, you're doing gods work but you aren't convincing Roogsy, not today, not ever.

Roogs- say TFC does rip up Deros contract now and renegotiate, what do you think MLS will say about that? This would set a horrible precedent for future contract negotiations no? Do you see any way that MLS lets ANY team sign him to a DP contract after this sort of stunt?

[reggie]

fowards???
let me know when we get a couple of wingers and a striker so he can make them better.

[Roogsy]

Pookie, you're doing gods work but you aren't convincing Roogsy, not today, not ever.

Roogs- say TFC does rip up Deros contract now and renegotiate, what do you think MLS will say about that? This would set a horrible precedent for future contract negotiations no? Do you see any way that MLS lets ANY team sign him to a DP contract after this sort of stunt?

At this point I don't think it's good business even if MLS would allow it (which I think they would have a concern with it although I think a much less problem today than they would have say 2 years ago.)

If I am going to be honest with regards to what is best for this team and even what is best for DeRo, I think a trade elsewhere (San Jose a very good possibility) is necessary. Then let San Jose deal with the contract negotiation which I think is possible considering the return of the prodigal son. We get cap room by offloading a contract, the drama surrounding the poisoned relationship between DeRo and the Front Office goes away and we get a fresh start. Hopefully DeRo gets a satisfactory contract from San Jose, maybe an extension providing him financial stability and everyone moves forward.

And we struggle to make the playoffs while San Jose pushes for an appearance in the finals.

By the way, yeah you're not going to convince me if you pick and choose facts (or avoid answering a question when it doesnt suit your point). Because I am just going to offer the counter point of view. Is that not proper debating?

[Parkdale]

It's a slant when you selectively use facts by picking and choosing what to use to back up your point.

please see 'the keeper as captain' debate for examples of 'slant'

hahaha... I'm going to off-topic

[Ossington Mental Youth]

It's a slant when you selectively use facts by picking and choosing what to use to back up your point.

Again, how many goals did Angel score at 34 (actually turned 35 in October), 2 year older than DeRo?

if he hadnt acted the way he has as of recent (cheque celebration, sodding off to glasgow) id agree with you on resigning DeRo as a DP regardless of his age

[CretanBull]

Pookie, you're doing gods work but you aren't convincing Roogsy, not today, not ever.

Roogs- say TFC does rip up Deros contract now and renegotiate, what do you think MLS will say about that? This would set a horrible precedent for future contract negotiations no? Do you see any way that MLS lets ANY team sign him to a DP contract after this sort of stunt?

The final two years are options, if they decline the 3rd year the 4th year is also (obviously) voided. I think that would make him a free agent, but they could have a new contract for him ready to sign on the spot, even making him signing the new contract the condition of them declining their option.

[Pookie]

It's a slant when you selectively use facts by picking and choosing what to use to back up your point.

Again, how many goals did Angel score at 34 (actually turned 35 in October), 2 year older than DeRo?

No idea, clearly you do and will selectively use it to attempt to back up your future prediction that not only will DeRo's point production continue on its current pace but he will outperform any DPs that become available now and over the term of his contract... am I right?

I like how the idea that skills decline with age... as evidenced in freakin' medical journals... is considered a "slant" and selective use of facts... when considering extending significant concessions to a player who is up there in years.

The only counter point to that is apparently, "no they won't because look at his past" or worse "because I say so"

Odds are odds and they are stacked against him. I'm not willing to take that risk. You are.