I can't agree, I think the MLS teams couldn't compete in Serie A, but I also must say I wouldn't be too interested in watching Frosinone play Verona.
I can't agree, I think the MLS teams couldn't compete in Serie A, but I also must say I wouldn't be too interested in watching Frosinone play Verona.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
Really? how many playoff teams from last year would struggle in serie A, and why? Where in say LA's lineup, or Dallas' or even ours come up short against the lower tier serie A lineups?
Talent overall on the lower Serie A is more balanced then any of the squads you mentioned. Yes we in the MLS have more "stars", but those teams would get their ass handed to them as the soccer IQ and tactics are soo far superior to what we see in this league. As people mentioned before maybe we should shoot to compete with Mexican teams before the comparison with any of the top 5 leagues in EuropeOriginally Posted by molenshtain
Any of the half-decent Mexican teams would kick the shit out of the bottom half Italian teams. The italian league is also played in such a vacuum that any team playing any type of modern tactic at a high speed already has a leg-up.
You have to understand that people like Juraj Kucka are starting routinely for Milan now. Like, that's FUCKED. That league is so, so bad. Guys like Fabian Castillo would look like world-beaters week in week out against a lot of those teams due to how many favorable match-ups he'd get.
I'm sorry, but with all due respect you have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't know that soccer was more of a track meet and then an actual game of skill and tactics. Serie A is the most tactical league in the world, the closest is the Bundesliga. It's funny that people think Serie A is boring cause it is a low scoring, but if you can play in Serie A you can play anywhere and not the other way around.
FYI Mexican teams and players are almost as overrated as USMNT players. Your North American bias is quite obvious. Go watch Serie A games and then watch a Mexican game and then MLS games of the equivalent teams and if you can still come back and say that those other teams are 'better' at winning matches then come back and have a chat as I'm not sure you are watching
it's funny you say that, out of the top 5 leagues in Europe for 2014-2015 season, it was the highest for goals scored:
Serie A- 1024 (2.72)
La Liga- 1009 (2.66)
EPL- 975 (2.57)
Ligue1- 947 (2.49)
Bundesliga- 814 (2.66)
Sorry, can you point to some recent examples of serie A players leaving to go succeed elsewhere? Serie A has an absolutely awful track record of exporting talent to other leagues over the last century, so that's patently not true. Michael Cox had a good article about that not so long ago. This is the league that made Balotelli look like the best young player in the world. Think about that.
It's high scoring, sure, but that has a lot to do with the defending being horrible. The league lags seriously behind in coaching and tactics in comparison to the rest of the world. Which Italian managers come across to you as tactical geniuses? Mancini? Capello? Trap? Spalletti? Allegri? Conte? Ancellotti? not a single one would say tactics is their strong suit. They (italians) refuse to play with width and at pace, and they get crushed for it whenever they come up against it. That, and none of them have any money so they can't buy or produce talent at a consistent rate anymore. Honestly have you watched a Bundesliga game or a Premier league game recently? It kind of is a track meet. In a match these days players run at least twice what they did a decade ago. If there's any misconception about the league it's that it's "tactical". That implies an ability to stay up to date with modern trends. In terms of tactics, the Italians haven't progressed past 1995.
I watch all three leagues at least semi-routinely. The quality of the average italian player has monumentally decreased over the last century, and with reduced spending power they can't bring in top talent from south America or the smaller european countries anymore. The league is a shell of it's former self. Stop acting like it's still the nineties.
Last edited by molenshtain; 02-16-2016 at 03:05 PM.
you might like this wee article, it's a bit dated but gives a run down on Italian players who have played in the PL, some of the views are a bit simplistic and I wouldn't nessecarily agree with them but a few names I'd forgot who actually tried the pl, you might be surprised on some names
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...etti-Zola.html
Any one of them would struggle in Serie A. You are grossly underestimating the average Serie A team. Balotelli, by the way, has the skills to be a top player in any league, people who got him in are not stupid, the problem is that he is a headcase, and gives little effort, it is the same in Serie A as in any other league. He would have the same problem anywhere her plays.
We really struggle to even compete against Mexican Clubs and sometimes even clubs in places like Honduras or Costa Rica in Concacaf Champions League. How many tittles have Mexican clubs won and how many MLS Clubs?? ya exactly. Lets focus on becoming dominant Clubs of North America first before we start trying to claim we can compete with leagues like Seria A!
Last edited by james; 02-15-2016 at 11:31 PM.
Sampdoria is 16th in Serie A - let's have a look at their top players:
Roberto Soriano is an Italian MNT comer. 23 years old. Going somewhere like Inter for 10M euros or more.
http://www.espnfc.us/internazionale/...-coy-on-future
Nobody like him in MLS.
Luis Muriel. 24 years old. Colombian striker. Frequently rumoured to be moving to a big team (Liverpool often mentioned). Also easily worth 10M or more in transfer value.
Nobody like him in MLS.
Fernando, Brazilian midfielder. 23 years old. Came on an 8M euro transfer.
Nobody like him in MLS.
Ricardo Alvarez. 27 year old AM, Argentine MNT player owned by Inter (on loan via Sunderland). Subject of a dispute re whether Sunderland actually own him and owe Inter 10M euros for him.
Nobody like him in MLS ex Giovinco.
Joaquin Correa. 21 year old AM, Argentine MNT player transferred to Sampdoria for 6.5M 18 months ago.
Nobody like him in MLS.
Andrea Ranocchia, 28 year old defender owned by Inter, loaned to Sampdoria. Liverpool apparently offered 9M euros for him in January.
Nobody like him in MLS.
____________
I do not see how anyone can seriously argue that any MLS team can compete with a Sampdoria.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
and a 36 year old Massimo Maccerone is the best player and leading scorer for Empoli, who are ninth. was Maccerone ever as good as Di Viao? How would he do in this league right now?
You're also vastly overstating the quality of a couple of those guys. Lautaro Acosta, Castillo, Mauro Diaz, Lucas Melano are all equally as good and young as Correa, even if they're less hyped. There's probably a bunch of other guys I'm missing too.
Alvarez is terrible. Weren't you the one saying how bad Sunderland was? he's so bad they had to get him off the squad as soon as they got a look at him up close. The majority of Dp's and probably and probably a bunch of other guys in this league are equally as talented.
Muriel isn't even better than a fit Altidore. Any player who comes over from South America and shows off any sign of athleticism gets hyped to shit in Italy. There's a reason he went from Udinese to Samp and not somewhere more meaningful.
Sorry, arguing they are all overhyped (they probably are) doesn't change the fact that Italy has a hundred guys similar to the ones I named, and MLS has zero.
I'm done.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
We have one. His name is Giovinco
Right!We have one. His name is Giovinco
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
I think this would be evident if we were ever able to see an actual competitive match between an MLS side and a Serie A one. There is also a big difference in the level of coaching between the two leagues, I doubt there is a Sarri or Di Francesco popping up in MLS anytime soon.
Just before this thread gets any more disrespectful I'll genuinely ask instead of doing the minute or so research:
Any difference between squad numbers and schedule between the leagues?
I remember in the countless comparisons in the old days reading there was an inconsistency there.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
That's a poor point, because most Italian players CHOOSE not to leave Serie A.....but any top Italian player in the last 10-15 years could've had a spot on any team in the world.....Totti, Del Piero, Pirlo, etc.....hell, Buffon CHOSE, again, in the prime of his career to play in 2nd division....Italain players lack of record abroad has only to do with their own commitment to their domestic league.....the Balotelli example is a poor one because imo he's always been overhyped, and has looked equally as poor now in his return to Italy as he has on his other teams.....and besides, if you want to you can flip the script....how many English players (for example) have succeeded in Spain?....Germany?....Italy?.......exactly.....
hmmm lets see.....we could try Allegri, who outcoached Real in the CL semis last year......Ancellotti, who won the CL with Real just a couple of years ago......or hey lets try the guy who's team is currently leading the "best league in the world" up against teams with millionaire owners, unlimited budgets....oh yeah, Claudio Ranieri......could've sworn he's Italian.....It's high scoring, sure, but that has a lot to do with the defending being horrible. The league lags seriously behind in coaching and tactics in comparison to the rest of the world. Which Italian managers come across to you as tactical geniuses? Mancini? Capello? Trap? Spalletti? Allegri? Conte? Ancellotti? not a single one would say tactics is their strong suit. They (italians) refuse to play with width and at pace, and they get crushed for it whenever they come up against it. That, and none of them have any money so they can't buy or produce talent at a consistent rate anymore. Honestly have you watched a Bundesliga game or a Premier league game recently? It kind of is a track meet. In a match these days players run at least twice what they did a decade ago. If there's any misconception about the league it's that it's "tactical". That implies an ability to stay up to date with modern trends. In terms of tactics, the Italians haven't progressed past 1995.
Is Serie A the best league in the world still?.....no, but you'd be very hard pressed to find a Serie A supporter who thinks that anyways......and besides, its a silly argument nowadays, especially in leagues that are ruled by foreign players and owners.....but Italian teams/coaches still hold their own......its simply wrong to think otherwise.....
Choosing to play for one's domestic league to grow it is a nice thing to say but
without players moving to other leagues it makes it more difficult to measure.
This is fact.
The reason for players not wanting to test themselves elsewhere isn't relevant to comparison. But it IS a nice sentiment.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
I don't necessarily agree because it is not a question of quality....the players I mentioned undoubtedly have/had the quality to play anywhere......a top Ivorian player (for example) NEEDS to go abroad to get noticed.....a top Italian (or Spanish or German for example) does not since their domestic league gets enough exposure......in fact, if you look at the national teams who have had success in the last 10-15 years, the top players almost all played in the domestic league.....its absolutely relevant to the debate.....
What debate? I was using direct comparisons. Using International competitions to compare domestic leagues is an indirect comparison.
I know you're defending the league you love. And its a great league but the extra effort needed to do that proves my point about comparison.
The only debate is the how ridiculous comparing MLS and Serie A is: middling or very ridiculous??
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
Man there is some garbage in here. Italian players don't leave Serie A because it's well-known the national team looks almost exclusively to Italy to pick players, always has. Didn't realize the tactics are stuck in 1995 either. A true miracle that Juventus made the last Champions League final then, I suppose.
And even the player selection may be slowly changing to looking outside the domestic league...
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
If you're from the country and making decent money, why would you want to leave Italy?
Isn't there another board for generic MLS discussions?
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
This article was due this year. If we surveyed around the league (OUR league) and asked fans if we thought this year past was only the first and would our league continue "poaching" from Serie A?
Pretty sure most would chuckle. Serie A has been shown to be in an interesting place this past year with different factors that helped MLS snatch some great talent.
It really opened a door but that door ain't wide open nor will it swing entirely shut. MLS is an option for players of any talent level but the league cannot be measured comparatively with any accuracy to the top leagues in the world.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
sure I get that.....but unless I'm drawing a blank only Giovinco is in this category......I don't include Pirlo there, because he is more in the "old man" category with Gerrard and Lampard (kinda like Di Vaio and Nesta were, though Di Vaio did quite well).....and even with Seba, I guess it is a matter of perspective really....I mean, certainly no one is talking of MLS poaching La Liga talent, or pointing to it as evidence of a "dying" league with the dos Santos signing....or Villa signing.....and imo Gio and Seba are pretty much the same class of player.....Villa even a class above both....I mean, as much as I LOVE seeing him in our colours and to have an Italian be so successful in MLS, the fact of the matter is that Giovinco was a 4th choice striker with Juve, nothing more.....I guess me and others here though the article was a needless attempt to perhaps trash Serie A......I find that much like MLS, the people who trash Serie A never even watch it (or haven't in years)......
I will say this much though, and agree with you to say that it certainly is something to see these names young and old come to our league in higher volume every year......definitely a treat for us......keep it coming!
Well it depends on what you look for. There were very few people trashing Serie A in here and the article is completely tame in pointing out how Serie A is struggling in some very select areas
My point is that people look for what feeds an argument sometimes. You can minimize Serie A's contribution to MLS this past year if it makes you feel better. Some people outside of that POV will latch on to a banner year of aquisitions for MLS. A Serie A "bumber crop" if you will.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
ok, but to anyone who actually watches the league, their problems are pretty much plain to see and you won't have many of Serie A's supporters trying to deny them.....that is, poor/old stadiums (which are slowly, FINALLY being fixed/built new), and less bankroll to compete with other teams....there's absolutely no arguing that.....and again to those who regularly watch the league, teams still bring up quality players....
I'm not minimizing their contribution to MLS at all.....like I said in my last post, I'm actually very happy to see that Serie A is a place where MLS teams may be looking to more and more for talent.....I just find that their contribution is not much more than any other league....certainly not worth pointing out anyways....
and like I said previously, unless its just not my day to be able to think, who other than Giovinco can be mentioned that makes up this Serie A "bumper crop".....I'm not trying to be thick, just genuinely asking as his name is the only one I can think of.....can Bradley be included there? I don't necessarily think so....his and Seba's roads to MLS are quite different....so who else is there then?....Allan Stefanovic maybe??
Last edited by TFC Tifoso; 02-17-2016 at 03:09 PM.
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