I am all for giving the man a chance, always have been, perhaps his agent should be working harder on a negotiationOriginally Posted by Derko
I am all for giving the man a chance, always have been, perhaps his agent should be working harder on a negotiation
Ok my day just got better, I'm off for the rest of it. No more pissing matches!!
I did one better, I've told them in person.
That's what this whole Celtic thing was about. I have more confidence in the ruthlessness of this agent than I do in the competency of his last. Like I said, it's now in TFC's court. Let's see what they do.
hmmmm and here I thought this was all about having a chance to see how a "big outfit" trains. A chance to get a little stretching in, run a couple of laps, tour the stadium and visit the Celtic gift shop before going to Turkey.
Let's not go over this again. If anyone here thinks players train with big clubs only to stretch their legs, they're naive, plain and simple. Fans should not care about intent, as long as things are done properly, it's a part of the business and we should accept it.
Geez...talk about rehashing things that are irrelevant.
You've come a long way baby
Originally Posted by Roogsy(page 29)
^ I think the point many of us are missing is that there appears to be different requirements for "training" as opposed to "trialing". Did DeRo meet the requirements for "trialing". Even I have to admit no. Did he meet the requirements for "training"? Even I am not sure how they differ from trial approvals, but apparently they do. Unfortunately in our rush to lynch DeRo have any of us considered whether he met the burden for a training session?
My other point in this whole debacle is how many players "train" at other clubs while under contract to another?
^ and want to miss training camp, with new coaches, players and systems, to train with another club?
Option year. Letting him go test the market somewhere else was the best thing for the team. He wanted more money and they didn't want to give it to him. He was entering the option years on a contract the team said it would renegotiate at that point. So both sides took some risks and did some renegotiating. If the first statement from TFC when it was outed over DeRo gong to Celtic had been, "Oh yeah, he asked we said yes," there would be no story, there would only be business as usual.
You've come a long way baby
Originally Posted by Roogsy
^ I think the point many of us are missing is that there appears to be different requirements for "training" as opposed to "trialing". Did DeRo meet the requirements for "trialing". Even I have to admit no. Did he meet the requirements for "training"? Even I am not sure how they differ from trial approvals, but apparently they do. Unfortunately in our rush to lynch DeRo have any of us considered whether he met the burden for a training session?
Not at all. Unless of course we are all burying our heads in the sand. There is no need for any player in North America to "train" in Scotland, England or anywhere else further away than their own league or continent. The point of training stints at another club is something of a preliminary "dance" with a club for a quick look that may or may not lead to a longer commitment. Do you agree or disagree? Or do you honestly think that players go to other clubs halfway around the world to get in shape?
The point of the post you just quoted from me was simply a matter of paperwork. If DeRo's camp submitted the correct paperwork for a training stint at club and it got approved, then what exactly is the problem here? So the real question is, did that happen and between who?
Everything else is irrelevant. You guys are looking for ghosts where there is nothing but wind blowing through trees.
Exactly, that's not "training", that's trialing.
Trialing is a more formal arrangement where the interest is more acute. If you guys don't know that, it's ok but don't pin that on someone else. Are they similar? Yes. Are they the same? No. Did anyone lie to you like you are behaving? No.
Last edited by Roogsy; 01-24-2011 at 05:20 PM.
What option year?
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2009/...tfc_derosario/
I've never seen or heard any evidence of option year or even any clauses from TFC or even DeRo. In sports, most option years are tacked on to the end of the contract. i.e. two years plus an option.Toronto FC have signed newly acquired Canadian international Dwayne De Rosario to a new four-year contract.
And I've yet to see any contract that MLSE has given out that has a renegotiation clause in the middle of the contract.
Again, negotiating a contract extension, or a negotiating a new contract as a existing contract is expiring is different than renegotiating in the middle of an existing contract. At least in sports. I mean I've asked in this thread for people to provide me examples where a team has renegotiated an existing contract for a raise smack in the middle of an existing contract.
Last edited by Whoop; 01-24-2011 at 05:25 PM.
Oh, I never thought he was going there to train. That would be silly. I'm just taking a little shot at one of the defenses used in this whole debate.
I honestly think that TFC wanted him there in order that he could earn a longer term contract.
They clearly didn't want him going for a short term loan, saying no to the same, so giving "permission" (eventually) had to be done with the idea that if they could rid themselves of the contract on a longer term, they'd do it.
The only other plausible reason for TFC to allow him to stay there was to save face after having their hand forced.
Either way, I'm not sure how that parlays into him staying with the Reds in 2011.
Fine.
So was Celtic interested or not?
Just trying to get to a hundred. I thought earlier in this thread the contract was described as two years plus two option years (at one year each).
I think that was the ploy from the agent from the start despite the public being told to the contrary. i.e. permission vs. no permission, training vs. trialing
But that would surely make you look like the bad guy for sure. Akin to a player not happy with his contract holding out at training camp.
The fact is DeRo was stuck. He had a contract that he signed for 4 years based on the promise from a previous GM that he would get raise at some point. He never got that raise and it appeared he wasn't going to get that raise. Unlike someone who has a regular job and could quit and take a job with another company, an athlete doesn't have the ability to "quit" and get a job with another team.
One option he has is to demand a trade out or the other is hold out. In both cases, the public isn't going to look to kindly on you.
So he and his agent found a way to force the clubs' hand to react in some way. They were able to exploit the incompetence of the previous regime or rely on that fact so when questioned what the hell are you doing in Glasgow? They could just respond "oh we were allowed to." And even if it wasn't the case they could just play it off as "see TFC is so incompetent, can't get their facts straight" and still save face.
That's why people in sports don't like agents because they'll come up with these kinds of scenarios.
Just to clarify Whoop...it was a 2 year guaranteed contract with 2 options years.
Yup.
Thanks.
You are right.
So it's a club option, not a player option meaning that the club either retains him at the existing contract or they just release him.De Rosario’s contract gives Toronto FC the option to retain him or release him over the next two years.
See... this whole fuck up wasn't really Mo's fault, it was DeRo's agents fault.
a) Agent shouldn't have never let DeRo sign a contract based on a verbal promise.
b) Agent should have advised DeRo to sign a two year contract as opposed to a 4 year contract especially given the fact that there was this verbal promise to give him a raise, make him DP, make him the highest earner on the team, etc. You have more flexibility that way. The only down side with a short term contract is if you get hurt, it could hurt your earning potential on the next one.
c) If you're going to put in option years, make it a player option as opposed to a team option.
Roogsy mentioned something about a new agent. a) Good on DeRo for firing his previous agent if that's the case and b) it sounds like the new agent has some tricks up his sleeve.
Found it.
But they are club options not player options.
In this case the options are a) do we keep at his current pay rate or b) do we release?
I'm sure the club would exercise option a.
You're like 20 pages behind Vic. Most of us knew this already and have been working under this understanding.
Do we know by what date TFC had to exercise the option?
In any event, what we do know is that this was really just 'negotiating' by a new agent and nothing that should have become this kind of a story.
That's fine. It still doesn't change anything.
It just proves to me that the whole Celtic ploy was done to strong arm TFC to give DeRo a new contract when they don't have to.
Yet people were denying it.
But there is no basis for the negotiation.
The agent was likely trying to piss TFC off to see if they would release DeRo so he would be a free agent.
If club gives the indication that they are going to pick up the option, what other choice does the agent have at that point? Other than trying to embarrass the club to the point where the club says fuck it and let's him go?
What people were denying it?
The training stint served several purposes one of which was to leverage TFC for a new contract, hedge in case TFC released him or if TFC happen to be willing, allow for some time in European with a big club. Is that not obvious? I hardly think anyone denied any of these points have they? This is all just good business. In fact, aside from all the confusion over the permission thing, this is exactly what I would expect a good agent to do for ANY player.
People were initially saying that this wasn't leverage for a new contract. Why? Because doing something like this for leverage in some cases would make you look bad.
What people were denying it?
The training stint served several purposes one of which was to leverage TFC for a new contract, hedge in case TFC released him or if TFC happen to be willing, allow for some time in European with a big club. Is that not obvious? I hardly think anyone denied any of these points have they? This is all just good business. In fact, aside from all the confusion over the permission thing, this is exactly what I would expect a good agent to do for ANY player.
Which comes back to the whole permission thing in the first place. Why give a player permission to go overseas so said player could use that "training" stint as leverage for a new contract? That's asinine.
DeRo wasn't in the same shoes as Ljungberg, who was out of contract.
What people were saying this?
As for your second question...why give player permission? Because Soccer teams aren't in the business of keeping players if they find better opportunities elsewhere not to mention there is probably something in the CBA that allows for players to look for opportunities which is why this permission issue isn't about whether DeRo should have gone to Celtic at all but rather whether or not he went through the proper channels. TFC nor any other team can deny proper exploration of opportunities for players. They can only insist that it be done within the requirements of the player contract and the CBA.
Sports teams are in the business of maximizing what they can get in return for their players, either on the pitch or in a transfer. You are acting like team's aren't aware of their player's intentions when they do these sorts of things. Maybe you personally aren't, but they certainly are. And what they do to mitigate the effects of a player leveraging interest elsewhere is simple: negotiate, loan or release.
I have to say Vic...your understanding of transfers, contracts and loans is making me a little frustrated. If we have to go to the basics of player contracts, trials and loans it will be a cheap way to hit 100 pages so I would rather not. Let me just concede that DeRo going to train at Celtic was part of an overall plan to get DeRo a better contract, either here at TFC or elsewhere, including Celtic. That is what player agents do, that's how they get paid and that is how players get paid better.
For a guy like yourself who has accused DeRo of being stupid with his initial contract with TFC, the one he was unhappy with, I would have thought you would understand that he is now being more business savvy and doing what needs to be done in order to get a contract he is more happy with.
This is why I think they actually hoped he would land a long term deal.
They had to be prepared for 2 options.
1. He'd get a long term deal on the table. In which case they would move the player. No sense him going there if they weren't prepared to sign off.
2. He'd not get the long term deal. At which point, "leverage" would move back to the club. How valuable is this asset if he can't secure longer term interest? If he isn't prepared to accept their terms, they can move on via trade and build a team without him... as they would have had to be prepared to do if option 1) ever materialized.
They were/are prepared to play without him one way another.
I agree completely.
But don't be surprised when you get a backlash from supporters for pulling these stunts.
Even when the story broke in 2009 about the contract (Wheeler interview) I had said... "first rule of thumb about contracts, don't talk about them in public."
So when he did the Wheeler interview, when he did the cheque writing celebration, when he went to Celtic, it puts all it out in the open. Even if DeRo is 10000% right, he's going to get a backlash.
And then people say "I don't understand why people are picking on DeRo."
Any rookie agent will advise his client of the same.
And the second point is that even if TFC is 10000% wrong in previous dealings with DeRo, they don't have to renegotiate a thing with DeRo at the moment. Though some will argue that TFC has some sort of "moral" duty to renegotiate with DeRo.
Hey, I like people to be moral too but I also know that a lot of times morals and business (or in this case sports) don't mix.
And I don't disagree that people will dislike DeRo for what has transpired. Hey...to each his own. If you don't like him because of the contract issue or because of his chicken dance...it's your prerogative.
It's when people make unsubstantiated claims or ridiculous assertions like claiming that somehow DeRo is responsible for our failure to make it to the playoffs. Or that contracts are never renegotiated mid-term. That's when I seriously question the intelligence of this board. I am not here to referee taste. But let's have an intelligent conversations about the facts please.
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