Official - Dero on trial with CELTIC

[Pookie]

That depends on the team. It's deluded to say that they would all want him at this price tag but it is just as silly to say none would either.

Back on topic I guess.

You know there is one scenario in which a re-worked contract could benefit both sides without involving the DP.

You'd have to set aside the optics of giving into a whinny, selfish, display mind you but if everyone gets past that, you can lower his cap hit without giving up the DP tag.

As highlighted pages ago, it appears that only the base salary number counts against the cap.

Perhaps there is a scenario in which his base salary is lowered but a "one time bonus" is paid (or structure created). Eg. Take his base down to $200k and pay a one time bonus of $1M. Effectively, he'll make $700k over 2 years but his cap hit would be $200k.

This gives him a raise and lowers the cap hit at the same time.

A lower base number (after a bonus is paid) also would presumably make him more attractive on the trade market for when his skills decline.

Best part of it is that we'd still have the DP slot.

[Beach_Red]

^ that's a good idea. What's the league policy on a bonus for making the playoffs?

And yeah, where is Dust2?

[bgnewf]

The annual press day before training camp starts in Turkey is likely going to be the 26th. the $64,000 question is whether DeRo will be there and if yes, what he says.

[Roogsy]

The annual press day before training camp starts in Turkey is likely going to be the 26th. the $64,000 question is whether DeRo will be there and if yes, what he says.

Hopefully by then there is a resolution to the whole thing. If there is and the resolution includes DeRo staying with TFC, I would expect a joint statement that has been vetted by both sides. In other words, minimal info released to the public.

[Chevy]

DeRo is not untradeable as much as it fits your point of view. There are actually several teams that I know would like to have him on their roster. You can be sure that if DeRo plays for TFC this year it is not because Winter feels stuck with him. He has many options. You guys just can't accept that he is a coveted player in this league.

Which teams that "you know of"? Any evidence here? Before you even attempt an answer, is this one of those super-extra-secret bits of insider insight you seem to have but really never comes to light as being true or even existing?

I'm surprised this one didn't get the red font alert treatment.

"Coveted" players don't get dealt for Julius James. I know the man has two names but really, come on.

[ag futbol]

Dude, you know that as much as you might try to spin some argument to the contrary the man has trade value. That doesn't mean you have to like him, his personality, or want him on TFC. It also doesn't mean that someone is going to give him a DP contract if they trade for him.

If he had no value or if his contract was that brutal, he would have been exposed in the expansion draft like De Guzman was.

[Shakes McQueen]

Hopefully by then there is a resolution to the whole thing. If there is and the resolution includes DeRo staying with TFC, I would expect a joint statement that has been vetted by both sides. In other words, minimal info released to the public.

I expect TFC to either make DeRo unavailable to the press that day, or more likely, I expect him to dismiss all of it as rumour then quickly say something along the lines of "it's all behind me and I'm focused on the upcoming season".

- Scott

[Roogsy]

Dude, you know that as much as you might try to spin some argument to the contrary the man has trade value. That doesn't mean you have to like him, his personality, or want him on TFC. It also doesn't mean that someone is going to give him a DP contract if they trade for him.

If he had no value or if his contract was that brutal, he would have been exposed in the expansion draft like De Guzman was.

Or outright released. He is in an option year, all they had to do was not pick up the option and low and behold we have all that capspace available. They didn't do that. So TFC is telling us is that they believe he is worth at least that much in capspace, so it is not a stretch then to think that given they are willing to use up that much capspace on him now, they may look at an option that reduces his cap impact as well.

[Yohan]

Or outright released. He is in an option year, all they had to do was not pick up the option and low and behold we have all that capspace available. They didn't do that. So TFC is telling us is that they believe he is worth at least that much in capspace, so it is not a stretch then to think that given they are willing to use up that much capspace on him now, they may look at an option that reduces his cap impact as well.

Or, think they can get something out of DeRo trade from some other team, instead of getting nothing by just releasing him.

Then again, weird trades happen in this league all the time, like, star players get traded for peanuts, just to reduce cap space

[Shakes McQueen]

Then again, weird trades happen in this league all the time, like, star players get traded for peanuts, just to reduce cap space

I was just thinking the same thing. "Trade value" of players can be pretty wacky in Major League Soccer. Good players seem to get traded for peanuts, released, or simply not offered new contracts all the time. Look at some of the players that have fallen into TFC's lap for seemingly nothing - some small amount of allocation, late draft picks (worthless in this league), no name players, or for simply nothing.

Conventional wisdom would dictate that DeRo has pretty good trade value, but MLS roster moves seem to violate the rules of conventional wisdom for pro sports all the time. The tight salary cap seems to drive teams to madness.

- Scott

[bgnewf]

The press day will be telling. Only some sort of "joint statement" is going to be enough.

[Pookie]

Or outright released. He is in an option year, all they had to do was not pick up the option and low and behold we have all that capspace available. They didn't do that. So TFC is telling us is that they believe he is worth at least that much in capspace, so it is not a stretch then to think that given they are willing to use up that much capspace on him now, they may look at an option that reduces his cap impact as well.

Let's discuss that "cap impact" statement.

Only the "base salary" counts against the cap and there are "official statements" out there (on the Timbers website for one) explaining that the maximum base salary and cap hit for any player, including DPs is $335k.

Since DeRo makes a base of $375k, we can only assume that allocation money is being used to "pay down his cap hit."

While deciphering MLS salary cap information is like trying to understand women, if you go on the knowledge that only the base salary counts against the cap and $335k is the max, there isn't a big advantage on the savings front.

[Pookie]

Conventional wisdom would dictate that DeRo has pretty good trade value, but MLS roster moves seem to violate the rules of conventional wisdom for pro sports all the time. The tight salary cap seems to drive teams to madness.

- Scott

Agreed.

If DeRo got himself out of a contract "negotiation" in which he desired more money and was traded to Toronto for James and allocation money, what makes us think that an older DeRo who is in another contract "negotiation" in which he desires more money, is going to have a trade value HIGHER than James + allocation money?

[Roogsy]

Let's discuss that "cap impact" statement.

Only the "base salary" counts against the cap and there are "official statements" out there (on the Timbers website for one) explaining that the maximum base salary and cap hit for any player, including DPs is $335k.

Since DeRo makes a base of $375k, we can only assume that allocation money is being used to "pay down his cap hit."

While deciphering MLS salary cap information is like trying to understand women, if you go on the knowledge that only the base salary counts against the cap and $335k is the max, there isn't a big advantage on the savings front.

Am I mistaken but does not his current salary have a cap hit of 435k or somewhere thereabouts? If so, the cap savings would be 100k. In MLS, that is quite a bit of space. Now if you're right and the current cap hit is 375k then the savings would be less but there would still be savings.

[ensco]

Possible discussion topics to get this sucker to the promised land (100 pages):

- hairstyle: cornrows? ponytail? which haircut should he use....
- chicken dance: love it, hate it, or indifferent?
- did Dero run Tyrone Marshall off just to get his # 14

[Pookie]

Am I mistaken but does not his current salary have a cap hit of 435k or somewhere thereabouts? If so, the cap savings would be 100k. In MLS, that is quite a bit of space. Now if you're right and the current cap hit is 375k then the savings would be less but there would still be savings.

Yes, this is where it gets interesting.

I found a few references on the subject:

"Salaries are broken into two categories. The base salary is just that, a base salary that counts toward the salary cap. The second includes all signing and guaranteed bonuses divided over the term of the contract."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n19062003/


"The total base salary for the year is the figure used to determine the salary cap amount for each team. "

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chic...#ixzz1BscVv43g


"The Fire's total "guaranteed compensation" for 2010 is $2,890,293.00 although the base salary number is the figure used when determining the total cap dollars used."

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chic...#ixzz1BsdAj4ER


... and if Portland's website is any indication the "minimum salary a senior player can be paid will be $42,000 in 2011, with a maximum salary of $335,000. However, clubs may sign a player for over the league maximum through the use of the Designated Player Rule"

http://www.portlandmls2011.com/news/...aproster-rules

... we could theorize that since DeRo is not a DP and is earning $375k as a base, this is as a result of allocation money. Further, we could speculate that his current cap hit is already at the DP/League maximum of $335k per the above. Clear as mud?

That said, the league doesn't disclose the cap rules and hits like the NHL does. There are a number of factors that could come into play but if we accept the basic premise that the base number is the driving number and bonuses are not factored into the cap (performance, signing, etc.), the cap savings idea becomes really murky.

However, it could lead to creativity in restructuring a contract. Something a higher revenue club like TFC could use to their competitive advantage. Guess that's Mariner's challenge and why knowing the inner workings of the cap was a very important piece of the rebuilding puzzle.

[Oldtimer]

I suspect that DeRo's stock is pretty low right now in the league.

It's likely that Houston traded him for James because his constant salary demands were proving a distraction for the team. If the situation hadn't been so, they would have extracted their pound of flesh from Toronto for Toronto to obtain a "star" from home.

Other clubs aren't going to have that "home star" factor, and they know that unless they pay him an amount way beyond his worth, there is potential for more disruption.

That's nothing to say about DeRo as a player, who has great ability, but plays in a salary-capped league with limited budgets.

[Roogsy]

I suspect that DeRo's stock is pretty low right now in the league.

So you honestly think teams think this way:

Contract whiner > 15 goals and proven winner?

I doubt it.

This has been the most annoying part of this whole discussion. Like I have said, I have no problems with people not liking DeRo for his attitude or his demands, but please let us not make things up that seemingly prove our point. What indication is there that DeRo's stock is pretty low in the league? His MLS Best XI nomination yet again? His All-Star appearance?

[Chevy]

^^ At least you have finally admitted he's a whiner.

[Oldtimer]

So you honestly think teams think this way:

Contract whiner > 15 goals and proven winner?

I doubt it.

Then why was he traded for Julias James? it's not like they owe Toronto any favours. Certainly MoJo had few friends around the league.

If DeRo=Julias James then something has sunk his stock. No way are the two players equivalent.

If you tell me it was just a favour to DeRo, I find that hard to believe. A club will sell (or in MLS trade) a player if they want to go, but they will maximize what they can get while they are at it.

[Brooker]

hehe this is fun. go to page uhh 30 something and tell me how it's any different than 77.

[Beach_Red]

Then why was he traded for Julias James? it's not like they owe Toronto any favours. Certainly MoJo had few friends around the league.

If DeRo=Julias James then something has sunk his stock. No way are the two players equivalent.

If you tell me it was just a favour to DeRo, I find that hard to believe. A club will sell (or in MLS trade) a player if they want to go, but they will maximize what they can get while they are at it.

It's true, at this point he has almost no trade value - but as Pookie points out that's more becaue he's getting older and not worth the cap hit. It's not unlikely there was some league involvement in the trade - they own all the contracts and approve all the trades and have been known to make decisions based more on marketing than anything else and DeRo in Toronto was good for marketing - just like McBride in Chicago was good for marketing.

One thing this really shows, though, is the importance of management in a salary cap league. The teams with better managers, who can get the most out of "whiners" and players who feel they should be getting paid more or be in better situations and who can manage personalities will win a lot more games.

And that's why things are looking up for TFC - as long as the decision to keep or cut DeRo is completely that of the soccer guys and marketing isn't taken into account at all.

[Roogsy]

Then why was he traded for Julias James? it's not like they owe Toronto any favours. Certainly MoJo had few friends around the league.

If DeRo=Julias James then something has sunk his stock. No way are the two players equivalent.

If you tell me it was just a favour to DeRo, I find that hard to believe. A club will sell (or in MLS trade) a player if they want to go, but they will maximize what they can get while they are at it.

The Houston organization holds DeRo in great regard. In fact, there are pockets in Houston that would tell you they still want DeRo back. In Houston and in it's predecessor city San Jose he was part of 4 cups. Very often, in all sports and leagues, teams will do their star player who has put in his time, a "solid" by facilitating a trade to a home club that would not have the same monetary value than a trade elsewhere. They do this because they felt they had a suitable substitute in Holden and because DeRo would not have accepted a trade elsewhere, reducing the ability of the team to negotiate for a better deal.

James at the time WAS a highly rated prospect, he was young and cheap and DeRo did max out the cap at the time in the salary cap with Houston. It's not like this deal did not make financial sense for them. But be assured that it was a deal only available to Toronto as Houston would not have made this deal with anyone else.

Do not take the terms of this trade as some sort of indication of DeRo's reduced value. That is a narrow view of the trade that does not take into consideration the context. It's a similar mistake to those who point to no European experience as somehow being equivalent to reduced value. Obviously that is not the case since if he had reduced value, TFC would not have picked up his option at all.

[Whoop]

The Houston organization holds DeRo in great regard. In fact, there are pockets in Houston that would tell you they still want DeRo back. In Houston and in it's predecessor city San Jose he was part of 4 cups. Very often, in all sports and leagues, teams will do their star player who has put in his time, a "solid" by facilitating a trade to a home club that would not have the same monetary value than a trade elsewhere. They do this because they felt they had a suitable substitute in Holden and because DeRo would not have accepted a trade elsewhere, reducing the ability of the team to negotiate for a better deal.

James at the time WAS a highly rated prospect, he was young and cheap and DeRo did max out the cap at the time in the salary cap with Houston. It's not like this deal did not make financial sense for them. But be assured that it was a deal only available to Toronto as Houston would not have made this deal with anyone else.

Do not take the terms of this trade as some sort of indication of DeRo's reduced value. That is a narrow view of the trade that does not take into consideration the context. It's a similar mistake to those who point to no European experience as somehow being equivalent to reduced value. Obviously that is not the case since if he had reduced value, TFC would not have picked up his option at all.

I dispute the bolded part.

Teams will do a favour and trade a star player to his hometown if possible but by the same token they're not going to give away said player for free.

I mean they could have done a 3 team deal to get more.

[Whoop]

hehe this is fun. go to page uhh 30 something and tell me how it's any different than 77.

It's no different. But the goal is 100.

Eye on the prize.

[Roogsy]

I dispute the bolded part.

Teams will do a favour and trade a star player to his hometown if possible but by the same token they're not going to give away said player for free.

I mean they could have done a 3 team deal to get more.

They didn't give him away for free. They received allocation money, freed up a ton of capspace and thought they were getting a highly rated prospect. That is actually a fairly high price for a player in MLS. That the prospect turned out to be a bust should not reflect on their view of the deal at that time. There are many people in Houston who would go back on this deal in a heartbeat even though Houston got a nice chunk of change. What you are doing is attempting to rewrite history.

And how many "3 team deals" have you seen in MLS? This isn't the NBA Vic.

[Chevy]

^ So Houston got rid of a contract whiner AND freed up a ton of cap space?

You're finally starting to come around. Walk into the light.....

[scooter]

yes finally admitted he's a whiner
another 10 pages maybe admit huston wanted rid of him
by the time this thread reaches 100 who knows the possibilities

[Roogsy]

yes finally admitted he's a whiner
another 10 pages maybe admit huston wanted rid of him
by the time this thread reaches 100 who knows the possibilities

There seems to be an issue with comprehension here. I was characterizing Oldtimer's opinion of him, not my own.

Houston did not want to get rid of him but also were not overly upset to see him go because they had a nice deal in place and Holden in the wings. Unlike TFC, they had put in place a plan.

[Derko]

This is really boring, If deRo comes back and performs I will applaud him, If DeRo comes back and is mediocre I will boo him, It's all in DeRo's hands and how much of a professional, he and his agents are at negotiating with TFC. Pretty simple isn't it.
Yes he is a proven goal scorer and game changer, but he is also a proven whiner, If I see DeRo sitting on the pitch sulking behind the play again I will puke.

DERO get on with it, if you really want out, get the fuck out, If you really want to negotiate and perform for TFC, the supporters and your home town, then get the fuck on with it.