Official - Dero on trial with CELTIC

[Dave67]

Why is it when someone believes in something it has to be portrayed negatively? When there was a perceived injustice to Dichio this board exploded in "man love". Yeah I'm like a dog on a bone mostly because I find the support for MLSE on this to be quite unbelievable. That they could blatantly keep screwing players and we're ok with it.

Curious that you thought my post was negative. I've posted on the subject about 3 times. My first post, in the early days of this sensation, said that Dero would come out to a corus of boos at BMO field at our home opener. He would then score, the place will go wild and all this nonsense will be forgotten.

I neither support Dero or MLSE in this mess. It shows how completely fucked up TFC are as a club and Dero and his agent are as a unit. For God sake players trial at teams all the time. Somehow with TFC it turns into a soap opera. It beggars belief.

[flambe]

The very fact that our captain would want to miss the pre-season and possibility of the opening game of the season is preposterous to me. We are rebuilding again and need our "captain" and most talented player around. It's not like he is a youngster trying to make an impression in Europe, or even learn from the experience. Hes going to be retiring soon. It's not like he needs to keep his profile up to stay in the national side (ala Beckham).

I for one am glad that Winter put his foot down and put an end to this farce.

[Roogsy]

I thought I did in my last post?

Sorry Wull must've missed it in the volume of posts. Your last post asks a lot of questions but you didn't provide evidence that he did something wrong, which is what I have been asking. If we are to condemn him in the court of public opinion, let's have something tangible in our hands. So far, there hasn't been anything. DeRo's position (in the limited communication we have seen, I admit) has been that he had permission. If there has been a violation of his contract or CBA, then let's have it out in the public or if not, let's put this issue to rest until we do.

Players do not complete the paperwork. Teams, agents and associations do that. Players, all of them, simply wait for phone calls that tell them "go ahead and pack your bags". They grab their bags, pull out their passports and go the airport. They don't even book their own tickets. DeRo has to put faith in his team, the league and his agents to get the paperwork done. And his agent is no rookie. His firm is a respected soccer agency in Europe. 3 weeks after initially contacting TFC, do you think his agent said "fuck it, I'm not doing any paperwork"?

Either you acknowledge that you are not getting the full story, in which case it's best that you don't condemn a player before you do....or you fill us in on the facts of the matter that give everyone reason to want DeRo strung up by his ballsack. There is no middle ground here. If there is no facts here, then you have all judged DeRo prematurely. Yeah, yeah, yeah...it's public opinion. You don't need "all" the evidence. It doesn't make it any less wrong.

[Whoop]

I have one question.

Wheeler refers to someone "higher up" giving DeRo permission. Why doesn't someone from TFC or DeRo's camp say who the "higher up" is?

The highest guy would be Anselmi but I can't see he being allowed to make football decisions like that.

Cochrane says and acts like it wasn't him.

Winter and co. weren't in charge yet.

I can't see it being Klinsmann.

To me that only leaves Jim Brennan.

Question is does Jim Brennan have the authority to say yes or no?

[BeerBaron95]

^^ excellent question Vic.. hehehehehe

The sauce is mild!!!

[razor787]

I have one question.

Wheeler refers to someone "higher up" giving DeRo permission. Why doesn't someone from TFC or DeRo's camp say who the "higher up" is?

The highest guy would be Anselmi but I can't see he being allowed to make football decisions like that.

Cochrane says and acts like it wasn't him.

Winter and co. weren't in charge yet.

I can't see it being Klinsmann.

To me that only leaves Jim Brennan.

Question is does Jim Brennan have the authority to say yes or no?

My guess would be that Anselmi had said something along the lines of 'We dont have a coaching team in place yet, so we cant say yes right now' and by the time a coaching staff was brought in, and had time to take a look at the DeRo situation, it was kinda late for Celtic to grab him.

[Wull]

Sorry Wull must've missed it in the volume of posts. Your last post asks a lot of questions but you didn't provide evidence that he did something wrong, which is what I have been asking. If we are to condemn him in the court of public opinion, let's have something tangible in our hands. So far, there hasn't been anything. DeRo's position (in the limited communication we have seen, I admit) has been that he had permission. If there has been a violation of his contract or CBA, then let's have it out in the public or if not, let's put this issue to rest until we do.

Players do not complete the paperwork. Teams, agents and associations do that. Players, all of them, simply wait for phone calls that tell them "go ahead and pack your bags". They grab their bags, pull out their passports and go the airport. They don't even book their own tickets. DeRo has to put faith in his team, the league and his agents to get the paperwork done. And his agent is no rookie. His firm is a respected soccer agency in Europe. 3 weeks after initially contacting TFC, do you think his agent said "fuck it, I'm not doing any paperwork"?

Either you acknowledge that you are not getting the full story, in which case it's best that you don't condemn a player before you do....or you fill us in on the facts of the matter that give everyone reason to want DeRo strung up by his ballsack. There is no middle ground here. If there is no facts here, then you have all judged DeRo prematurely. Yeah, yeah, yeah...it's public opinion. You don't need "all" the evidence. It doesn't make it any less wrong.

The fact that celtic had to pull him from training until proper paperwork was put in place shows there was something that was done incorrectly. It's not TFC's responsibility to make sure everything is done in the proper manner, in the right order. That's clearly the responsibility of the player (or his team if you like but he hired them) as he initiated the whole thing. I would never hold our FO up as a bastion of truth and professionalism and I wouldn't doubt that heels were dragged etc. but I refer back to the first line of this paragraph and unless you or his camp can give the name of someone at either club who said "the paperwork is in place or is being finalized and faxed" he is the one I will be holding accountable for embarrassing the club unnecessarily.

I'm not going to have a go at him for wanting to go on loan. As I said, had it been done properly it could have been the answer to everyone's issues. DeRo could have gotten the supplemental income to keep him happy, the club could have kept him on his contract as it is and we'd have gotten a fully match-fit player ready to go for the new season, you know I wanted him as a DP and the captaincy removed as a resolution to the cheque-signing issue so this isn't someone looking for another reason to hate him.

[Whoop]

I think whoever the higher up from TFC that gave "permission" should be fired.

[ensco]

I think whoever the higher up from TFC that gave "permission" should be fired.

Why do you feel this, without knowing exactly what happened?

[Beach_Red]

I think whoever the higher up from TFC that gave "permission" should be fired.

Do you think DeRo should not have been given permission?

[Pookie]

Are we back on this "Permission" thing?

Even IF... big IF... a verbal was given, the Player, the Agent and Celtic know that there must be an agreement in place.

Clearly, this trial stopped in order to secure the necessary documents. They weren't done.

No documents. No trial.

Regardless what was said, interpreted, alluded to, alleged, suggested, hinted, indicated, inferred, intimated, promised, lead to believe, theorized, or represented, no one from TFC with any signing authority signed off on a document that would have satisfied all of the legal requirements that reflect "permission".

Unless the Agent is a tool and got his license online by sending 3 payments of $39.99, he knows that and went ahead without real, true permission.

And unless DeRo was lied to by his agent or simply ignorant to details of his own future, he knows that and went to Scotland and stepped out on the pitch without real, true permission.

[Whoop]

a) Everyone is implying that someone "higher up" gave permission. Yet, we don't know who. Did this higher up even have the authority to give permission or to make a soccer ops decision?

b) Regardless of whether or not I believe DeRo should have been given permission or not, the person who has supposedly gave permission has created a mess that could have been easily solved in the first place.

- Tom Anselmi, IMO, should not be making soccer ops decisions like that. Even I think he would be smart enough that if approach he would tell DeRo to talk to the appropriate person.
- Earl Cochrane was given the title of interim GM. In my eyes, he would be the only guy allowed to give permission. Now if he gave DeRo permission, but is now claiming he didn't, I don't think it reflects too well on him. Now if he didn't give permission, someone, in my opinion, overstepped their duties.
- Paul Beirne is the business guy, not a soccer ops guy, so like Anselmi I would hope he would direct DeRo to the appropriate person.

So that leaves Jim Brennan and Nick Dasovic (is there anyone else I'm missing?). Brennan is the ass't GM, not the GM. And Dasovic was/is the coach. Again, you would hope that either of these two gentlemen would say, "I have no issue with it but you have to get the sign off from Earl. He's the GM right now."

So that's why I say whoever gave permission in the first place... either is lying about it or overstepped their duties.

I'm still inclined to believe that no permission was given in the first place given that no one (TFC or DeRo) has even mentioned who gave permission in the first place.

[Whoop]

Are we back on this "Permission" thing?

Even IF... big IF... a verbal was given, the Player, the Agent and Celtic know that there must be an agreement in place.

Clearly, this trial stopped in order to secure the necessary documents. They weren't done.

No documents. No trial.

Regardless what was said, interpreted, alluded to, alleged, suggested, hinted, indicated, inferred, intimated, promised, lead to believe, theorized, or represented, no one from TFC with any signing authority signed off on a document that would have satisfied all of the legal requirements that reflect "permission".

Unless the Agent is a tool and got his license online by sending 3 payments of $39.99, he knows that and went ahead without real, true permission.

And unless DeRo was lied to by his agent or simply ignorant to details of his own future, he knows that and went to Scotland and stepped out on the pitch without real, true permission.

That's what I think happened.

But now you have a guy like Wheeler saying that he had permission and other people claiming that DeRo didn't do anything wrong and it's all TFC's fault.

If someone at TFC did something wrong, I would expect that person to be fired.

De Rosario was well within his right to pursue a similar loan. But instead of advancing with the short-term loan in a cordial manner, the process became a public relations nightmare with Toronto FC’s refusal to acknowledge they gave permission to their leading scorer to go on trial at Celtic in the first-place. Any potential fires could have been put out from the start if it was publicly acknowledged they were allowing DeRo to go.
Contrary to reports on MLS and team websites, a person of prominence at TFC did give De Rosario permission. TFC’s failure to acknowledge as such made De Rosario out to be a rogue player, turning his back on the club in pursuit of his own interests. This is entirely not true. And for the past three weeks, the local press has killed De Rosario. De Rosario being made out as a rogue player not only does the player a disservice, but Celtic as well.

That person should be fired - if true - because of the fallout that happened.

[Pookie]

^ except, one day before DeRosario starts his trial, Cochrane comes out and says there is no way he will be on trial at Celtic.

Let's assume that DeRo believes he has permission.

Unless DeRo doesn't have the internet or friends with the internet... which would be strange for a facebook, twitter guy... he knows a day before he CHOOSES to step on the pitch that there is conflicting information coming from the interim GM.

Would that not make a guy pause and ask his agent, WTF, maybe we better wait a day or two to clear this up?

It's not like Celtic was giving him a 1 day only, hurry up before all the transfers are done kind of deal.

He could have avoided this whole mess by pausing, asking the question regarding permission and holding off on his trial until it was resolved.

He didn't. He forced the issue because it is all about him. Could have waited, didn't want to.

What is coming now is simply an attempt at spin. I'm not sure what would be gained by trying to paint management as inept other than salvaging his own Rep. Nothing good would come of it from a team perspective but since it's all about him, I guess that's the route we'll see.

As long as he spins his way out of town, I'm good with his reaction.

[ensco]

Even IF... big IF... a verbal was given, the Player, the Agent and Celtic know that there must be an agreement in place.

Clearly, this trial stopped in order to secure the necessary documents. They weren't done.

No documents. No trial.

Regardless what was said, interpreted, alluded to, alleged, suggested, hinted, indicated, inferred, intimated, promised, lead to believe, theorized, or represented, no one from TFC with any signing authority signed off on a document that would have satisfied all of the legal requirements that reflect "permission".

Unless the Agent is a tool and got his license online by sending 3 payments of $39.99, he knows that and went ahead without real, true permission.

And unless DeRo was lied to by his agent or simply ignorant to details of his own future, he knows that and went to Scotland and stepped out on the pitch without real, true permission.

Sorry, but you are being way too definitive in saying this is the only possible explanation. It's not that compelling.

It is just as plausible that the paperwork was done, but there was miscommunication between MLS and TFC, and Celtic pulled him back simply to allow the parties to sort it out and save some face.

It is also plausible that everyone was in the loop and OK with this but that no one told Cochrane, who should have checked around before putting out a press release.

Frankly, the only thing that I feel rises to the level of being almost impossible to believe is the idea that Celtic would let him in on the grounds without appropriate signed paperwork, because of the legal liability Celtic would take in doing that.

[menefreghista]

It is also plausible that everyone was in the loop and OK with this but that no one told Cochrane, who should have checked around before putting out a press release.

We can only speculate, but I believe this to be the most likely scenario.

[ag futbol]

Unless DeRo doesn't have the internet or friends with the internet... which would be strange for a facebook, twitter guy... he knows a day before he CHOOSES to step on the pitch that there is conflicting information coming from the interim GM.

So let me get this straight: rather than listen to his agent (who's responsible for talking to TFC on his behalf) or Celtic, De Rosario should be checking ... the internet... for 3rd hand information on his own status?

[Pookie]

It is just as plausible that the paperwork was done, but there was miscommunication between MLS and TFC, and Celtic pulled him back simply to allow the parties to sort it out and save some face.

Hold up. You are suggesting that paperwork, or another way to refer to "paperwork" would be "binding legal documents", were signed by all parties but that there was some kind of "miscommunication" that resulted in this mess?

If they were done, ie. signed off by folks with the proper signing authority, they are done.

It is also plausible that everyone was in the loop and OK with this but that no one told Cochrane, who should have checked around before putting out a press release.

Sure. That would possibly explain the difference between the quote one day and the picture from the trial the next.

But really? Legal binding agreements in place between all parties. A trial set to begin. An opportunity for MLS, a Developmental League, to showcase a star player earning a trial with a well known Euro-club. The same club experiencing a dog fight at the top of their table and with injuries to key players and immediate need.

And this whole mess is simply an elaborate face saving exercise just for the sake of an interim GM that no one outside of Toronto has heard of?

C'mon.

When you see "official statements" like this:

"We talked with Celtic chief executive Peter Lawwell and he indicated that Celtic had been told by both the player and his agent that they had permission,'' a league official told the official MLS website.

Why is not plausible to think that the agent simply mis-represented "permission" to Celtic? Why is it so hard to think that DeRosario continued on despite word from his home club that he wasn't to be trialling because of a selfish desire to move on?

Frankly, the only thing that I feel rises to the level of being almost impossible to believe is the idea that Celtic would let him in on the grounds without appropriate signed paperwork, because of the legal liability Celtic would take in doing that.

Specifically noting Celtic's CEO Peter Lawwell position on this issue which could have resulted in tampering charges implies a much stronger legal interpretation of the events.

Unless of course, DeRo's agent can produce this written permission in which case MLS, TFC and Celtic's Peter Lawwell can stick to their story, use it in court and I guess in your eyes, face a perjuring charge as well.

[Pookie]

So let me get this straight: rather than listen to his agent (who's responsible for talking to TFC on his behalf) or Celtic, De Rosario should be checking ... the internet... for 3rd hand information on his own status?

Talk about stretching the point.

Simply put, would the story from the GM not make you want to ask your agent about it?

The biggest thing a developmental league can do is have a player on trial and here you have your club saying no, you aren't on trial... when in fact you are sitting in a hotel room in Scotland.

You just put your head down and ask nothing?

[ag futbol]

Talk about stretching the point.

Simply put, would the story from the GM not make you want to ask your agent about it?

The biggest thing a developmental league can do is have a player on trial and here you have your club saying no, you aren't on trial... when in fact you are sitting in a hotel room in Scotland.

You just put your head down and ask nothing?

Who's to say nothing was asked and nothing was done?

Let's face the facts: None of us here have all the information.

De Rosario has a tract record (with his agent) of being pretty aggressive about re-negotiating his contract. TFC Front office has a track record of mass incompetence. That leaves open the possibility that either party (or both parties) are responsible for this mess.

Your doing backflips to try and absolve TFC of any potential wrongdoing, but it's plainly obvious there is AT LEAST a reasonable possibility they fucked up based on their previous track record.

[ensco]

Specifically noting Celtic's CEO Peter Lawwell position on this issue which could have resulted in tampering charges implies a much stronger legal interpretation of the events.

Unless of course, DeRo's agent can produce this written permission in which case MLS, TFC and Celtic's Peter Lawwell can stick to their story, use it in court and I guess in your eyes, face a perjuring charge as well.

Actually, tampering charges, that's another good reason Celtic would never have put the player on the field without signed legal docs.

The public statements you quoted struck me as laughable at the time, and still do. But you are entitled to your view.

Anyway, we'll probably never know, because Dero's self-interest isn't served by embarrassing whoever it was who gave him permission.

[Beach_Red]

Anyway, we'll probably never know, because Dero's self-interest isn't served by embarrassing whoever it was who gave him permission.

Yes. And the reason I keep coming back to permission is because it's really the only thing in this mess that's important to the team going forward. When agents negotiate with TFC the issue of their players being able to trial with bigger teams will be important. There was no good reason to deny DeRo a trial with Celtic and yet TFC made it an issue.

So now, agents will likely only talk to TFC about very short-term contracts that will be very easy to get out of and that's not the best way forward in team building.

We're seeing it already with Attakora. With six months left on his contract before he can negotiate with another team TFC approached him about an extension of four years and his agent said no. Maybe two years. And likely with no option years as DeRo signed.

[Pookie]

^ So, Edu's trial and subsequent transfer is never considered at all?

Attakora's situation is completely different. Why did the agent say no? Do you realize that players under 23 with less than 3 full years of MLS experience do not have their contracts "guaranteed"? Perhaps this is about negotiating a fair deal for Nana that includes signing bonuses to compensate. If a 5 year deal were put on the table with no bonuses, it would mean little to Nana if it weren't guaranteed.

Back on to the permission thing, if the Peter Lawwell wants to allow himself to be misquoted on an official release from a league that might sue him, I guess that's fine.

As long as Earl Cochrane doesn't look a little "out of the loop", this elaborate ruse can continue.

[Pookie]

Actually, tampering charges, that's another good reason Celtic would never have put the player on the field without signed legal docs.

Makes you wonder why they took him off the field when they learned that the paperwork... do you mind if I call them binding legal documents.... didn't exist.

Again, I guess as long as Earl didn't look silly then it's all worth it.

[ginkster88]

Attakora would be foolish to sign a 4-year deal at 23. From his point of view, he probably thinks that he's going to be worth way more two years from now than he is right now, so it makes sense to sign short-term now and cash in later. This decision has nothing to do with TFC.

[Whoop]

^^
Exactly. He doesn't want to lock in long term.

[Beach_Red]

^ Sure, it's a negotiation, the team can bring up Edu if they want. One of the issues here is that TFC has to compete with an awful lot of other teams for players (something the other MLSE teams really don't have to do as they are in the top leagues in the world for their sports) so this may be all part of Anselmi's, "Learning," that he spoke about while he was still apologizing every day.

Certainly Nana's contract is different, but it'll be a very big surprise if he's on TFC in 2012 and beyond. Sure, some of that is the weird contract rules of MLS - and the salary cap is an issue - but this mess didn't help.

It may work out fine. It's a little worrying that TFC took something very simple and made it into a mess. And they've had a lot of time to clear it up - they were really between managers, it would have been perfectly acceptable to just say that - and now they have new management and everything should be fine.

But even now there's a slight inconsistency between what the levels of management have to say.

Let's hope the new management is fully in charge and the team moves forward - because they've got themselves a hole to dig out of and this mess didn't do them any favours. there aren't really that many agents in the world and they all know each other. DeRo's agent will have more clients that TFC is interested in and let's hope it can all be just business.

[ManUtd4ever]

Yes. And the reason I keep coming back to permission is because it's really the only thing in this mess that's important to the team going forward. When agents negotiate with TFC the issue of their players being able to trial with bigger teams will be important. There was no good reason to deny DeRo a trial with Celtic and yet TFC made it an issue.

So now, agents will likely only talk to TFC about very short-term contracts that will be very easy to get out of and that's not the best way forward in team building.

We're seeing it already with Attakora. With six months left on his contract before he can negotiate with another team TFC approached him about an extension of four years and his agent said no. Maybe two years. And likely with no option years as DeRo signed.

I don't know about that BR. It's a clean slate with the new regime and I'm sure prospective players and their agents will judge the organization based on their actions moving forward as opposed to holding Winter and Mariner accountable for the mistakes of the past.

As for Attakora, he probably doesn't want to lock himself into a long term deal and put a ceiling on his earning potential. If he elevates his play in the next couple of years, it allows him the flexibility to negotiate a more lucrative contract as opposed to going through DeRo's experience...

[ginkster88]

Certainly Nana's contract is different, but it'll be a very big surprise if he's on TFC in 2012 and beyond. Sure, some of that is the weird contract rules of MLS - and the salary cap is an issue - but this mess didn't help.

I don't disagree. The only scenario where Nana is with TFC in beyond 2012 would be if the salary cap rises significantly between now and then. Otherwise we'll have to sell him in 2011. The cap in MLS is severely restricting the growth of the league, and serviceable mid-level players are almost impossible to hang on to. You have to pay 3-4 "stars" 300+ and then fill in the gaps with 40K-90K kids or journeymen, and get as much allocation as you can. That's no way to grow a league, and MLS really needs to do something about it.

[Whoop]

David Baldwin is DeRo's agent. Yet on their website DeRo isn't even listed as a client.

Strange.

http://www.basesoccer.com/our-team

http://www.basesoccer.com/clients