Official - Dero on trial with CELTIC

[__wowza]

Nobody in their right mind would want most of the players we released. They weren't important. Tying someone to a long term contract and using a DP slot IS important and affects how this club will go forward for years

we released one of our DP's already without a GM or coach in place, are you condoning that? my point is, you can't justify releasing half of the team, releasing a DP, and then turn around and go "sorry, dero. with all of the movement so far we can't talk to you right now. oh, hey nathan sturgis! want a contract?"

what you're saying is..
releasing a bunch of our players: good, because no one wanted them
re-negotiating a current player (our captain/leading scorer): incompetent

[Parkdale]

We're upset because he did it without consent of the club.
We're upset because this has further tarnished the club's reputation.
We're upset because a guy getting paid $400k plus a year is once again putting himself before OUR team.

I'm upset that the guy who scored 15 of our 33 goals in MLS matches isn't going to be as easy to replace as some people seem to think. And for $400,000? That's another hurdle.

[Roogsy]

Morning Roogs. So look, we agree both parties are to blame- why continue to defend Deros actions? Can't we all just agree everyone was wrong, Deros agent acted like a DICK, Dero at best is extremely negligent and callous. The club incompetent and stupid. But the club isn't the one who can fix this situation, Deros the only one who can. Why isn't he? Why hasn't he?

My position has never been that DeRo is blameless. My position has always been that DeRo is not guilty of what people here are accusing him of and had permission to go to Celtic. Permission for what? Well I too was very careful not to be specific because I did not have that information until later.

My defense of DeRo isn't that he is innocent in all this. In fact, I readily admit and have admitted on several posts that this is a negotiation play. This is the agent forcing TFC's hand to respond. I am quite certain that this "trial" or "training" with Celtic is not actually meant to result in anything. Celtic have obviously done business with Baldwin before and probably took on DeRo for the week as part of their ongoing relationship. At no point have we heard any serious talk about Celtic looking at DeRo. But it did force the TFC front office to get their ass in gear.

My guess is that this will finally result in direct contact with DeRo's agent. Something that I know has been in short supply from the TFC FO. The key statement from DeRo's camp has been that DeRo wanted the whole situation resolved by January. He did not want to go into Training Camp without knowing how things were going forward. Obviously he has not gotten any response. It's not that he got a "no" from the team, it's that they have not responsed at all. How long has it been since the infamous "cheque signing"? How long has it been since the season ended? I think their patience ran out and they had to make TFC snap out of their slumber, which we all agree seems to have been the case for the past month.

We are in the middle of a game of brinkmanship. One that I don't think will have a winner. Both reps are sullied. The relationship damaged. My guess is DeRo will be on an American team once again by the start of the season.

[Wull]

That's not the point. You are excusing behaviour here. Either Earl can or cannot make fundamental roster decisions. If he can, then by all means proceed with the cleaning out and the bringing on of new players. If he can't, then he should not have done the moves he made. There are many of us that held this position from the very start of Earl's moves. Defining his role is crucial and yet TFC have refused to do so to fans. So if Earl can fire players, if Earl can bring on new players, Earl can respond to renegotiation requests...he certainly should not be ignoring them. Even if the answer is "no"...an answer needs to be given. Would you not agree?

I'm not excusing behaviour Roogsy, they should have turned around and told whoever requested negotiations that they wouldn't be doing so until the new management team was in place. Earl shouldn't have been allowed to piss away a first round draft choice on Sturgis. That's a different thread topic that I've already commented on.

This is about a player going on trial with a team without getting the proper paperwork that the club had said they would provide if requested. If it takes them a while to get that in place then that sucks but you can't just go anyway.

Maybe I've been spoiled by having the likes of Phil Neville, Dave Watson, Jimmy Sandison etc. as leaders for my teams but I expect a captain to keep their grievances in-house, especially when it's only them that is having a particular issue.

[Wull]

we released one of our DP's already without a GM or coach in place, are you condoning that? my point is, you can't justify releasing half of the team, releasing a DP, and then turn around and go "sorry, dero. with all of the movement so far we can't talk to you right now. oh, hey nathan sturgis! want a contract?"

what you're saying is..
releasing a bunch of our players: good, because no one wanted them
re-negotiating a current player (our captain/leading scorer): incompetent

Creating cap space: good
using cap space: bad

[Menelaos]

I'm upset that the guy who scored 15 of our 33 goals in MLS matches isn't going to be as easy to replace as some people seem to think. And for $400,000? That's another hurdle.

Can't look at it that way anymore Parkdale, he wasn't going to come back for $400k, so a better and perhaps more accurate comparison is can we get someone do to this for DP money as DeRo was asking for?

[Roogsy]

Roogsy, your responses to my points are in bold:

1. There was no agreement in place for Dero to trial with Celtic Never claimed there was. DeRo's permission was for training.
2. Dero did not receive permission from Toronto FC or MLS to trial with Celtic Again, never said there was

Here is your post from yesterday:

"I have unconfirmed reports that Celtic have documented approval for DeRo."

There are many other "source" posts from you in this thread that are clearly incorrect if you want me to dig them up too. And, no, Dero never received permission for "training" either.

Yup and my story has not changed. DeRo did not receive approval for training from TFC.

[Wull]

I'm upset that the guy who scored 15 of our 33 goals in MLS matches isn't going to be as easy to replace as some people seem to think. And for $400,000? That's another hurdle.

I've never said he was easily replaced. You can go back and check all the threads about it. I've always voted to keep him and raise his salary. His actions have now made it impossible for this to happen

[Roogsy]

Creating cap space: good
using cap space: bad

That's a simplistic way of looking at things and it completely ignores whether Earl has the authority to do anything at all with the cap space. Adding Sturgis USES cap space, regardless if it isn't DP level cap space. So either he can or he cannot determine TFC's cap space usage. Which is it?

[Parkdale]

and just out of curiosity..... who is getting paid about the same as DeRo?

http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/augu...n__by_club.pdf
(it has Dero listed as $443,000)



McBride in chicago
Casey in Colorado is making $350K
Joseph in New England is making $475,000 (which is probably the closest comparison to DeRo)
Taylor Twellman is making $460K (which is also comparable)



in short, there are very few players in that price range, and the ones who exist are going to be hard to get.

[DOMIN8R]

TFC’s De Rosario just training with Celtic, says agent

[Wull]

That's a simplistic way of looking at things and it completely ignores whether Earl has the authority to do anything at all with the cap space. Adding Sturgis USES cap space, regardless if it isn't DP level cap space. So either he can or he cannot determine TFC's cap space usage. Which is it?

He can but he shouldn't be adding to it. I've already said that in this thread a few times and also when Sturgis was brought in.

[Roogsy]

TFC’s De Rosario just training with Celtic, says agent

^ I think the point many of us are missing is that there appears to be different requirements for "training" as opposed to "trialing". Did DeRo meet the requirements for "trialing". Even I have to admit no. Did he meet the requirements for "training"? Even I am not sure how they differ from trial approvals, but apparently they do. Unfortunately in our rush to lynch DeRo have any of us considered whether he met the burden for a training session? Because even if it's a technicality, if DeRo did no wrong, are people not overreacting?

[Roogsy]

He can but he shouldn't be adding to it. I've already said that in this thread a few times and also when Sturgis was brought in.

But the point is he did. And thus sent a message that he has the capacity to determine these things. Certainly sufficient capacity to tell DeRo's agent about his renegotiation demands.

[Parkdale]

TFC’s De Rosario just training with Celtic, says agent

so there's our way out.

DeRo was just training, or so says the agent.


I always figured that hitting the gym was a good off-season training option, not going across the ocean to another club. But what do I know?

[Roogsy]

and just out of curiosity..... who is getting paid about the same as DeRo?

http://www.mlsplayers.org/files/augu...n__by_club.pdf
(it has Dero listed as $443,000)



McBride in chicago
Casey in Colorado is making $350K
Joseph in New England is making $475,000 (which is probably the closest comparison to DeRo)
Taylor Twellman is making $460K (which is also comparable)



in short, there are very few players in that price range, and the ones who exist are going to be hard to get.

I am sure Twellman would be easy to get but hard to field.

He retired because of concussion problems.

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

TFC’s De Rosario just training with Celtic, says agent

hahaha....what a fucking circus at TFC/MLSE!!!!

ITs a fucking TRIAL....Straight up!...

No big club lets you go out for a sunday afternoon jog..



TFC not knowing about this is a circus in itself!.....

Do i blame DERo for jumping at such an opportunity at 32....hell know....everyone here would do it...dont kid yourself!.....

[__wowza]

Creating cap space: good
using cap space: bad

DP's count against cap space..

[TFC/Everton]

The letters TFC haven't brought a smile to my face in a long time!!!!!

[Roogsy]

Can't look at it that way anymore Parkdale, he wasn't going to come back for $400k, so a better and perhaps more accurate comparison is can we get someone do to this for DP money as DeRo was asking for?

DeRo asking for DP money would have meant a reduction in the cap hit. So you could look at it both ways. What could we have gotten for a max cap hit of 330k? And then what could we have gotten for probably less than 1mill with a cap hit of 330k?

The answer to both eludes me. I don't know of any consistent double-digit goal scorer in MLS that is earning either 330k or 1mill.

[billyfly]

so there's our way out.

DeRo was just training, or so says the agent.


I always figured that hitting the gym was a good off-season training option, not going across the ocean to another club. But what do I know?

I said that yesterday. There's the rub. The "language" of trial or training etc.

[Wull]

DP's count against cap space..

Duh, what's your point exactly?

[Roogsy]

I said that yesterday. There's the rub. The "language" of trial or training etc.

Yup. Always has been. We've been speaking about the "language" in all of this since yesterday afternoon. TFC has been playing word games. DeRo's agent is playing word games. We're all just caught in the crossfire of negotiations.

[Wull]

DeRo asking for DP money would have meant a reduction in the cap hit. So you could look at it both ways. What could we have gotten for a max cap hit of 330k? And then what could we have gotten for probably less than 1mill with a cap hit of 330k?

The answer to both eludes me. I don't know of any consistent double-digit goal scorer in MLS that is earning either 330k or 1mill.

This was my position until yesterday as long as the captain's armband was also removed

[Menelaos]

DeRo asking for DP money would have meant a reduction in the cap hit. So you could look at it both ways. What could we have gotten for a max cap hit of 330k? And then what could we have gotten for probably less than 1mill with a cap hit of 330k?

The answer to both eludes me. I don't know of any consistent double-digit goal scorer in MLS that is earning either 330k or 1mill.

Good point, had not considered that.

[Phil]

Yup. Always has been. We've been speaking about the "language" in all of this since yesterday afternoon. TFC has been playing word games. DeRo's agent is playing word games. We're all just caught in the crossfire of negotiations.

That is football.

I am shocked that nobody sees that.

Look at Kaka and his move, Ronaldo too. They were all messy and I didnt see many people dumping all over their respective teams for the same reasons as we are here.

Is our front office in a state of repair after a damaging four years of Mo?

Yup.

I fail to see the point in laying blame on either side, this is way football negotiations work like it or leave it.

[Parkdale]

The answer to both eludes me. I don't know of any consistent double-digit goal scorer in MLS that is earning either 330k or 1mill.

Conor Casey.

13 goals in 2010 and a cost of $350K


but yeah, they are pretty damn rare.

[billyfly]

Exactly Phil. Seems like a lot of posts by lots of people are missing the (IMO) normal reality of this situation. Claims of TFC look like a joke, DeRo is a Judas etc

But then again, that is what these boards are, a place to view your opinion on TFC.

[Parkdale]

Conor Casey.

13 goals in 2010 and a cost of $350K


but yeah, they are pretty damn rare.

oh, and Jeff Cunningham had 11 goals for Dallas in 2010 at a cost of $230K

(but it's cunny, so fuck him!)

[Roogsy]

That is football.

I am shocked that nobody sees that.

Look at Kaka and his move, Ronaldo too. They were all messy and I didnt see many people dumping all over their respective teams for the same reasons as we are here.

Is our front office in a state of repair after a damaging four years of Mo?

Yup.

I fail to see the point in laying blame on either side, this is way football negotiations work like it or leave it.

This I can agree with.

Let the warring sides duke it out. As long as TFC comes out with a better deal to help build it, that is all that should matter to us.