Official - Dero on trial with CELTIC

[Roogsy]

I never said "solicited" or looking for work elsewhere and that isn't really the issue anyways. Trialing elsewhere can be seen to be the equivalent of interviewing at one corporation while still employed at another. And we all do it.

I fail to understand why players are bound by some sense of loyalty to clubs when the clubs fail to show the same loyalty to their players. If a player wants to trial elsewhere so be it. The only thing that I agree with most posters here is that they fulfill their contractual obligations in doing so.

But once they do...I don't see how they in any way "betray" their club or the supporters of their club. And certainly there are better examples in sports of athletes with low morals and values than DeRo.

[Suds]

I never said "solicited" or looking for work elsewhere and that isn't really the issue anyways. Trialing elsewhere can be seen to be the equivalent of interviewing at one corporation while still employed at another. And we all do it.

I fail to understand why players are bound by some sense of loyalty to clubs when the clubs fail to show the same loyalty to their players. If a player wants to trial elsewhere so be it. The only thing that I agree with most posters here is that they fulfill their contractual obligations in doing so.

But once they do...I don't see how they in any way "betray" their club or the supporters of their club. And certainly there are better examples in sports of athletes with low morals and values than DeRo.

agree with this ... all I ask of a player is to fulfill their contract and when/if they want to move do it within the rules/process set out

[ensco]

Celtic kicking every tire in world football this week


http://tribalfootball.com/articles/c...anjcar-1352601

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/...hard-dunne-and

http://www.footballtransfertavern.co...lion-pound-man

[Roogsy]

^ I agree that Celtic pulling DeRo has nothing to do with impropriety as much as they did not want to feed the fire of this story and wanted to cooperate with another football club and their indignance over the matter. I'd disagree that there is some sinister to discern from their action in that regard.

[Pookie]

Forget the "permission" or train vs trial.

The Pro-DeRo camp will never see fact. If DeRo's intention is to train then he supposedly doesn't need paperwork so just go ahead and train already... if 1 week of "training" is worth all this shit splattered on your reputation.

Facts are, legal advice on all sides has stopped this trial. Celtic clearly were in this to "get a look at the player", that isn't training. They talked openly about the possibility of signing.

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. The player needs to move on.

From a league perspective, this "model" for future MLS franchises has cast a stink over the crowning jewel in the MLS marketing bag... a star player from a developmental league earning a trial in Europe. This, after smearing the MLS Cup with protest and controversy... and the lowest ratings ever. But I digress, back to DeRo.

A few fans say we'll never replace a DeRo but what I can't understand is why they can't grasp the simple of concept of aging.

We may never find a goal scorer that could replace what DeRo accomplished at the age of 30 or 31. That's debatable but hey, a fair point.

But DeRo turns 33 at the 1/3 mark of this coming season. Will a 33 year old Dero be able to replicate (or better) what a 30 year old DeRo did? That's what we have in front of us.

Seems to me we are looking to replace a historical achievement not necessarily the promise of present day, guaranteed, production.

[CretanBull]

But DeRo turns 33 at the 1/3 mark of this coming season. Will a 33 year old Dero be able to replicate (or better) what a 30 year old DeRo did? That's what we have in front of us.

Seems to me we are looking to replace a historical achievement not necessarily the promise of present day, guaranteed, production.

Before this season, the average age of a MLS MVP was 34 (Ferreira is 31, so its dropped slightly). Thats not the average age of a serviceable player, or bench player, or starter, or good player...thats the average age of the best player in the entire league. In the past two seasons, DeRo has been without question the best player in a TFC uniform and has been named as one of the league's best XI. Had it not been for a slow summer month, DeRo would have been a strong candidate for league MVP.

Its not as if we'd be rewarding him now for things that he accomplished when he was 25...we're talking about his current form, not "historical achievement".

There's also the issue of righting a wrong and restoring our reputation among players. Players talk to each other. How many times have people here wondered why a player choses another market over us? People are constantly saying what a great city we have, what a great fan base we have, yet they sign elsewhere. When Sturgis was traded here people moaned about his lack of enthusiasm. From a player's perspective, when they see a club that isn't willing to reward its top player, one of the best players in the league, they aren't all that thrilled about coming here. Right now our front office has a reputation for being dishonest and not living up to the promises it makes. We've gotten rid of Mo, but if we continue opperating the same way then we haven't gained anything.

You've said that the "pro-DeRo" will never see the facts. I think that you're wrong about that. People aren't in denial about the individual facts, they're looking at the whole story, and not limiting their view to this one chapter.

No one can defend the check-writing incident, or this Celtic episode (if, when the whole story is revealed it shows that DeRo is in the wrong) but lets put it in its proper context. For whatever bone headed things DeRo has done, at the end of the day he's still an aggrieved party. The people who are ready to lynch him don't want to accept the facts for what they are, they want everything to be black and white - DeRo isn't judged fairly, he's judged as one of many greedy prima donna pro athletes - unfortunately, DeRo's time at TFC isn't that simple, its not black and white, its all shades of grey.

[Pookie]

Before this season, the average age of a MLS MVP was 34 (Ferreira is 31, so its dropped slightly). Thats not the average age of a serviceable player, or bench player, or starter, or good player...thats the average age of the best player in the entire league.

Actually, that's not true.

The average age is 30. Do the math, age during the season he won it in brackets:

'96 - Valderrama (35)
'97 - Preki (34)
'98 - Etcheverry (28)
'99 - Kreis (27)
'00 - Meloa (31)
'01 - Chacon (32)
'02 - Ruiz (23)
'03 - Preki (40)
'04 - Guevara (28)
'05 - Twellman (25)
'06 - Gomez (32)
'07 - Emillio (29)
'08 - GBS (35)
'09 - Donovan (27)
'10 - Ferreira (31)

Average = 30.47

Take out Preki as an outlier (one player, 2 awards +34 years never done before or again) average dips to 29.46. Take out Ruiz as an outlier on the younger side (youngest ever), average is 30.

If you point is "that's the average age of the best player in the entire league" , DeRo is on the wrong side of the average. Again, this isn't a 100% argument on either side of the equation. There have been players, such as Preki that made significant contributions, the league's best, as "veteran" players in this league.

But if this were a poker game, the odds are not in DeRo's favour. Age is something none of us can escape. I freakin' hurt myself sleeping now

As for your comments about the team and people wanting to come here, I guess we'll see what the future holds. Clearly, this club reeks of failure and I can't see why that would be attractive to anyone... regardless of how "DeRo" was treated. I have just as many criticisms for Pauly B and Tommy A about the way this organization is run but I don't feel this is a factor in this case.

Having talked to a few players, I'm not so sure that DeRo will be "missed" as much as some people think.

[CretanBull]

Actually, that's not true.
The average age is 30. Do the math, age during the season he won it in brackets:

Sorry, my mistake - I manually added Ferreira to the list that I had, then divided by 14 and not 15 (also, the list had MarK Chung as the 2002 winner, but the wiki page has Ruiz listed as the 2002 winner?).

In any event, my point was that while DeRo is getting older he hasn't shown any signs of declining...despite not having anyone to work with, he's had two of his best years, being named to the league's best XI etc. If he's looking for a $1 million a year for 5 years I wouldn't give it to him, but for 2 years? I wouldn't think twice about it, he's earned it and it would go a long way towards putting the Mo era behind us.

[Suds]

Sorry, my mistake - I manually added Ferreira to the list that I had, then divided by 14 and not 15 (also, the list had MarK Chung as the 2002 winner, but the wiki page has Ruiz listed as the 2002 winner?).

In any event, my point was that while DeRo is getting older he hasn't shown any signs of declining...despite not having anyone to work with, he's had two of his best years, being named to the league's best XI etc. If he's looking for a $1 million a year for 5 years I wouldn't give it to him, but for 2 years? I wouldn't think twice about it, he's earned it and it would go a long way towards putting the Mo era behind us.

I think this is the crux of the debate - for me anyway. What is DeRo asking for? Do we know is actual demands? How much more? For how long?

For me, if it were a few hundred thousand more/year for the next couple of years I would have no issue with that. If he's asking for more than double his salary for 5 years then I'm not on board with that.

Does anyone know just how far apart DeRo's current contract with TFC and what he wants it to be is?

[Pachuco]

Forget the "permission" or train vs trial.

The Pro-DeRo camp will never see fact. If DeRo's intention is to train then he supposedly doesn't need paperwork so just go ahead and train already... if 1 week of "training" is worth all this shit splattered on your reputation.

Facts are, legal advice on all sides has stopped this trial. Celtic clearly were in this to "get a look at the player", that isn't training. They talked openly about the possibility of signing.

At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. The player needs to move on.

From a league perspective, this "model" for future MLS franchises has cast a stink over the crowning jewel in the MLS marketing bag... a star player from a developmental league earning a trial in Europe. This, after smearing the MLS Cup with protest and controversy... and the lowest ratings ever. But I digress, back to DeRo.

A few fans say we'll never replace a DeRo but what I can't understand is why they can't grasp the simple of concept of aging.

We may never find a goal scorer that could replace what DeRo accomplished at the age of 30 or 31. That's debatable but hey, a fair point.

But DeRo turns 33 at the 1/3 mark of this coming season. Will a 33 year old Dero be able to replicate (or better) what a 30 year old DeRo did? That's what we have in front of us.

Seems to me we are looking to replace a historical achievement not necessarily the promise of present day, guaranteed, production.

I always get a giggle at the assumption that Dero's going to turn into a pumpkin when he turns 33. The guy at 32 was one of the best players in the MLS, at the top of his game last year and in pretty damn good shape. I don't even remember him being hurt last year. But yet, because he turns 33...1/3 of the way during the season, he's too old to keep.

As for your comment:

Will a 33 year old Dero be able to replicate (or better) what a 30 year old DeRo did?

A 32 year old Dero did....so it's not totally unthinkable that he can't do it again. In fact, it's not unthinkable that a 34 year old can maintain the same pace.

[ensco]

I always get a giggle at the assumption that Dero's going to turn into a pumpkin when he turns 33.

I don't think that's what he's saying.

I think it's more the case that, whatever happens, Dero getting $400K on one year deals feels right, and is probably about what his market value is, in MLS, or at a Celtic.

[Pookie]

But yet, because he turns 33...1/3 of the way during the season, he's too old to keep.

Hold on now. I never said he wasn't too old to keep. In fact, I've stated way back in this thread that on his current contract terms, we'd be silly not to consider keeping him.

However, he isn't looking at coming back on his current contract terms. He wants that ripped up. He wants the DP tag and salary to go along with it. Since HE is forcing the issue, it is prudent business to ask am I investing in an asset that is going to rise in value, maintain it, or decline over the term HE is asking me to commit to.

Clearly, aging players drop off in production. Will it be next year? Maybe. The year after? Maybe. The year after that? Maybe. Point is that a drop off WILL happen at some point and when it does do I have years remaining on my "investment" that will handcuff the team moving forward?

As for your comment:

Will a 33 year old Dero be able to replicate (or better) what a 30 year old DeRo did?

A 32 year old Dero did....so it's not totally unthinkable that he can't do it again. In fact, it's not unthinkable that a 34 year old can maintain the same pace.

It's not unthinkable. But which is a more likely scenario? He will beat the odds and continue on into his late 30's and early 40's like Preki? Or that he will follow the common trend and witness a decline in his skill set?

Investing in older players, significantly investing in them, DP slot and all, is risky.

For example, Angel is 35 yet no one wants him on a DP contract.

For example, Christian Gomez was 32 when he won the MLS MVP. When he was 33, he tallied 10 goals and 9 assists and got an All Star award for his credit.

When he was 34? He scored 3. When he was 36? He was playing for a USSF Division II team in Miami.

You can't predict the future but if you play the odds, you generally win your share of poker games.

[Roogsy]

For example, Angel is 35 yet no one wants him on a DP contract.

What age was he when he did sign his DP contract?

[Pookie]

What age was he when he did sign his DP contract?

32.

3 years, 58 goals later and he passes through a Waiver draft on his current contract terms. LA picked him up in the 2nd stage.

[Pachuco]

Hold on now. I never said he wasn't too old to keep. In fact, I've stated way back in this thread that on his current contract terms, we'd be silly not to consider keeping him.

However, he isn't looking at coming back on his current contract terms. He wants that ripped up. He wants the DP tag and salary to go along with it. Since HE is forcing the issue, it is prudent business to ask am I investing in an asset that is going to rise in value, maintain it, or decline over the term HE is asking me to commit to.

Clearly, aging players drop off in production. Will it be next year? Maybe. The year after? Maybe. The year after that? Maybe. Point is that a drop off WILL happen at some point and when it does do I have years remaining on my "investment" that will handcuff the team moving forward?



It's not unthinkable. But which is a more likely scenario? He will beat the odds and continue on into his late 30's and early 40's like Preki? Or that he will follow the common trend and witness a decline in his skill set?

Investing in older players, significantly investing in them, DP slot and all, is risky.

For example, Angel is 35 yet no one wants him on a DP contract.

For example, Christian Gomez was 32 when he won the MLS MVP. When he was 33, he tallied 10 goals and 9 assists and got an All Star award for his credit.

When he was 34? He scored 3. When he was 36? He was playing for a USSF Division II team in Miami.

You can't predict the future but if you play the odds, you generally win your share of poker games.

Ok fair enough. I do believe I mis-understood you after reading this.

[Roogsy]

The Pro-DeRo camp will never see fact. If DeRo's intention is to train then he supposedly doesn't need paperwork so just go ahead and train already... if 1 week of "training" is worth all this shit splattered on your reputation.

Billy said it best. If you hated DeRo before you hate him even more. If you loved DeRo before this hasn't changed your opinion.

Facts have nothing to do with this. You have no complete facts. Therefore you cannot come to a certain conclusion, only a hypothesis.

[Pookie]

Rudi, well written article.

[ManUtd4ever]

In all seriousness though, there is a realistic chance that DeRo will not sign with Celtic as a result of this public relations nightmare. In that event, it would appear as though there is little chance of reconciliation, which would likely force TFC to trade DeRo's rights to another MLS club (from a position of weakness no less). In that scenario, we lose our best player for a middling draft pick at best.

Part of me wants DeRo to clarify this misunderstanding to the media/public so that if he doesn't earn a roster spot with Celtic, he can return to TFC and honor his contract. At the very least, the situation can blow over and if the next GM wants to deal his rights, he can do so at a later time from a better bargaining position without a sense of desperation...

[Technorgasm]

Ths is a capped league. .
Id rather see soem sort fo QUALITY on teh pitch , then more MLSE pocket lining.
dont care where he WANTS to be, I want him here.

he is the besta player we have, lets not forget that amidts our hurt and juvenille feelings.

seriously, we should all want him, or anyone that can get results and stop fucking whining about this and that.

he wins games. he scores goals. . who cares what he thinks or wants?
pay him whatever, I dont care, you shouldnt care, he is worth it, every penny.
fucking pay up.
When I see pictures of JDGS fuckin Orange LAMBO it angers me. . .

in summation: stop crying. . and.. . . possibly. . stop caring. .

[Carter]

seriously, we should all want him, or anyone that can get results and stop fucking whining about this and that.

he wins games. he scores goals. . who cares what he thinks or wants?
pay him whatever, I dont care, you shouldnt care, he is worth it, every penny.
fucking pay up.
When I see pictures of JDGS fuckin Orange LAMBO and his Midnight black 2009 Hummer it angers me. . .

in summation: stop crying. . and.. . . possibly. . stop caring. .

AMEN!

The only people cause drama are the people on these boards.

Roogs, I am with you on everything you said last page.

[FluSH]

When I see pictures of JDGS fuckin Orange LAMBO it angers me. . .

To me the above is the right way of looking out for yourself. Not slagging your teammates and making them feel bad because you believe you should get paid more than them... As a captain, that's gonna go real far in gellin' the team together.

JDG negotiated a kickass deal... something that DeRo could learn a move or two.

[Wull]

To me the above is the right way of looking out for yourself. Not slagging your teammates and making them feel bad because you believe you should get paid more than them... As a captain, that's gonna go real far in gellin' the team together.

JDG negotiated a kickass deal... something that DeRo could learn a move or two.

Well when you're taking that amount for doing fuck all you SHOULD be keeping your head down and saying nothing!

[FluSH]

Well when you're taking that amount for doing fuck all you SHOULD be keeping your head down and saying nothing!

Hey absolutely, but you shouldn't have to endure a co-worker/teammate constantly bitching about his own situation because you make more. That right there is a bitch ass move.

DeRO should have negotiated his contract proper... if he feels he was wrong... sue.

[deltox]

from Celtic Boss Neil Lennon:

Lennon will also continue to monitor Dwayne De Rosario after his club, Toronto FC, and Major League Soccer claimed they had not authorised the Canada international to train with the Parkhead club.

The former Celtic skipper said: "I think it was an administrative problem but that has been resolved so he can carry on.''

[Oldtimer]

DeRo is the most likely LARGEST cause of the locker-room discord that we hear about all of the time.

He may be our currently most skilled player, but I'd rather clear the decks and have a balanced, well functioning TEAM, especially as he still has sale value right now.

[menefreghista]

DeRo is the most likely LARGEST cause of the locker-room discord that we hear about all of the time.

He may be our currently most skilled player, but I'd rather clear the decks and have a balanced, well functioning TEAM, especially as he still has sale value right now.

If I was also an underpaid player I would love the fact that De Rosario is out there trying to get more money. It sets a nice precedent.

[Parkdale]

DeRo is the most likely LARGEST cause of the locker-room discord that we hear about all of the time.

let's go with that..... and say that DeRo is a negative factor in the locker room.

now let's ask why!

why? because he's a) getting paid less than other players, but doing way more b) still burning from Mo's false promises c) a championship winning player who's on a near-hopeless team.


sure we can say that he's got an attitude problem - but the question is 'what can we do to keep from souring future players'.

The problem IS NOT that our hand is feeling pain, the problem IS that our hand is in the fire. Follow?

[CretanBull]

why? because he's a) getting paid less than other players, but doing way more

I'm going to do the ever so popular and refer to a source here, but its not only about the money, its about security. He didn't sign a 4 year deal as many people have said. He signed a 2 year deal with 2, 1 year club options.

He can't get salary insurance on an optional year.

So, if TFC exercise their option for this year and he has a career ending injury his insurance will cover his salary for this year, and he's SOL for the next year.

If the final two years of his contract were guaranteed and he got a career ending injury this year, his insurance would cover his salary for this year & next year.

[CretanBull]

I'm going to do the ever so popular and refer to a source here, but its not only about the money, its about security. He didn't sign a 4 year deal as many people have said. He signed a 2 year deal with 2, 1 year club options.

He can't get salary insurance on an optional year.

So, if TFC exercise their option for this year and he has a career ending injury his insurance will cover his salary for this year, and he's SOL for the next year.

If the final two years of his contract were guaranteed and he got a career ending injury this year, his insurance would cover his salary for this year & next year.

FYI - this was confirmed by DeRo himself.

[Suds]

let's go with that..... and say that DeRo is a negative factor in the locker room.

now let's ask why!

why? because he's a) getting paid less than other players, but doing way more b) still burning from Mo's false promises c) a championship winning player who's on a near-hopeless team.


sure we can say that he's got an attitude problem - but the question is 'what can we do to keep from souring future players'.

The problem IS NOT that our hand is feeling pain, the problem IS that our hand is in the fire. Follow?

but also ask why that same was true in San Jose & Houston? ... he was openly upset with his pay in both places as well